You are wise to start off in your work this way - honest about your choices and beliefs. this will save you a lot of grief, as compared to those who try to follow the party line early on, and then change their lifestyle later.
It is possible, though, to abstain completely AND not judge others who drink occasionally. I choose not to drink at all - not because my denomination will not allow it (I personally think that is a very poor excuse to stand behind and conviction and personal standards must run deeper than "I'm not allowed!" We outgrow that excuse when we become adults!) - but because it is a personal choice that I have made. I have friends and family members who have not made that same commitment and I am fine with that. What's interesting, though, is that I have been judged on occasion for NOT drinking. Either way, I think we all (meaning American Christians!) make too big a deal out of fermented fruit, vegetables, and grains :o).
Let me tell why I choose to completely abstain from alcohol use.
When I started college I considered myself to be a devout Young Christian. I believed this even though I did drink some. Although I never at this time drank enough to become drunk. In all reality I would go out with friends, or to a party, drink a couple of beer so that I could be part of the crowd and that was it. Then I realized why I needed to change.
I was at a party on a Friday night, a party in which I was there for about 6 hours and only had 1 beer. Well that following Sunday I was at the rec center playing basketball when this other student shooting basketball started talking about how horrible his life was ... How much he hated life ... And why he had no reason to live anymore.
Well I did what I thought any good Christian should do. I started to tell him what life was all about. How it was simply about having a good relationship with Jesus Christ and then trusting Him.
Well that is where I got stopped dead in my tracks ... His reply was this ... How can you tell me about God and that He is what I need in my life. You are no better than I am. I saw you at the party Friday night drinking just like me, so why should I listen to you.
I tried to explain that I wasn't better than him. That we all are in the same boat because of sin, but that I was covered by the blood of Christ, and I had a wonderful eternal life in Heaven to look forward too.
Did he accept Christ? Did he listen?
No way. He said Christians are suppose to be different, and that you are not, because you drink just like I do. Therefore I don't anything to do with a religion that doesn't change people.
Did I feel like I was wrong for drinking one beer at a party?
No way
Did that matter?
Not at all ... My image and testimony were destroyed because I appeared to be no different than the rest of the world.
That is my perspective ...
I just wanted to give you something to think about
on the other hand, i've had people listen to me because i am not a religious person - which to them means i drink sometimes and i know how to hang out with people who are not christians and i don't flinch when people swear.
it just depends who you are talking to.
i think the guy who wouldn't listen to Jeff may have been raised in a strict home and had a preconceived notion of what a christian is. maybe he needed to hear what Jeff said, and later thought about it in a different light ... or maybe not.
Good article, Brian. You covered a lot of bases with your writing. It is a difficult question that has a lot of American cultural stigma to overcome. Regardless of what position each of us may take on this issue, we need to respect those of other positions. That is exactly what Romans 14-15 is about.
I have a bar ministry and most of the time I drink Diet Pepsi with lime. But there are occasions where I will have a (as in one) beer. It has opened more doors than have closed. Frankly, I have never had a door for preaching the Gospel close because I had a beer. I have helped Atheists move to agnostics and to deists. I have been told I was the only (Christian) a person felt comfortable with and would talk with about personal issues.
Sure there are going to be people who will have problems with me having a beer. Most of those, however, grew up in cultural contexts where it was assumed that Christians don't or shouldn't drink. If a person has a problem with me drinking, I simply don't drink when I am around them.
The only thing I would disagree with, Brian, is that you and your wife don't drink around your kids. I grew up in an Italian culture. Drinking wine or beer was the norm. I had no desire to go off on a bender when I turned teenaged.
My wife and I have raised both our boys the same way. There was no mystique surrounding drinking. When they wanted a taste, we gave it to them. That was enough to turn them off. Neither of my boys, now 20 and 17, drink, not even when I am around. Both say they don't see the need.
All I am saying is don't create a "forbidden fruit" for their curiosities to dwell on. Be open and teach them about drinking responsibly when they are of age.
One view I have that has changed since I wrote the article has to do with drinking in front of others. I still think it would be a good witness to people addicted to alcohol if you showed temperence by drinking just one or two drinks. The issue is a biblical witness of temperence rather than (seemingly) flaunting around the fact that you aren't drinking. I do think that God has placed alcohol here for us to enjoy it, but there must be temperence as with anything that we use whether food or drink.
Brian, I really enjoyed your article. Thanks.
This is just not an issue with the vast majority of the church around the world. It seems an issue only with western conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists.
My pastor says he doesn't drink so as not to tempt alcoholics, but he has railed against the evils of alcohol in sermons.
I like to remind folks - Jesus' first miracle was bartending!
one last thing...I have a friend (well-meaning) that has shared the exact argument that wine was very dilute in Jesus' day, and that's why it was permitted.. I'm not sure I buy that for two reasons. 1. Peter stands up on Pentecost and says "These men are not drunk...it's still early in the morning!" In other words, it wouldn't be a hugw surprise for them to be drunk later in the day.
2. A man at the wedding in Cana wonders that Jesus has brought out the best wine for last. The way he says this is "Typically they bring out the good stuff until people are drunk!" In other words, if Jesus is agqinst any alcohol except the dilute stuff, why was he bringing out the good wine when people have admittedly had enough already?
We should not be drunk on wine, but filled with the Holy Spirit.
God gave man wine to make his heart happy.
Cheers!
Two weeks ago we brought a guest to our church on Sunday morning. She even participated in our adult Sunday school and said she enjoyed herself immensely. She hadn't been to church in about 20 years or so before that day.
At one point some of my friends asked me if we had known her very long. I said, no, we had just met her the night before in a local bar. My wife and I were there enjoying an excellent blues band along with a few libations and Sharon was also there and looking a little lonely....and well, anyway we had a good time.
I think sometimes when we speak of Jesus hanging out with the 'sinners' and lowlifes of Jewish society we think he was slumming - enduring their company because he loved them. I think he might actually have been enjoying himself, preferring their company to that of the priggish Pharisees. And guess what else? Those sinners and lowlifes - that's me and my friends!
Salute!
Excellent article. I too struggled with the question of drinking or not drinking myself since I come from a lifestyle of "social drinkers". I don't see anything biblical about drinking. Paul did write about partaking in meat sacrificed to idols as not losing our salvation but he also stated that we should not do anything to make someone else fall. My main objection is this.....every penny I make is a gift from God. He provides everything that I recieve. I also work with alot of ppl comming out of rehab. Beings that I feel like my "earnings" are God's, I will not support the companies that promote a product that has ruined so many lives. In saying this I in no way judge those who do drink. I don't think anyone is less a christian for drinking. But we have to ask God for guidence. Here is a case in point: A couple I know visited a prominent home church. I was very curious about them because I am very impressed with their structure. Well my friends came back with a report that "after worship, during fellowship time, they were all drinking beer". So needless to say they had a bad report. Now I have no problem with what this home church was doing. I myself wouldn't drink but I can see how a beer over dinner would be fine. I know alot of ppl are closed minded. But as christians we have to be careful because the whole world is watching us waiting for us to stumble. We cannot jepordize our witness.
J.
How many of your flock are you willing to invite to your next party Mr. Hoyer? I dont think this is right.
Here's a thought: the message of grace, of God's unmerited love -- bestowed upon us by the life, death, and resurrection of His only begotten Son, and as explained to us through His Word and the teaching of the Holy Spirit -- is bigger than all of of this. If Jesus says that our light, that of puny, imperfect humans, cannot be hidden under a basket, how much more so the glorious divine love of our Heavenly Father! The Word promises that anyone He calls to Himself has been chosen from the beginnings of the world, so that tells me this issue of "should I drink? should I not? if I do, how much?" is not as big a deal as we think it is. Of course we should not deliberately do anything to stumble someone else, but the flip side of the coin is that anyone seeking to find a love that will not let them down will recognize Jesus and say "yes."
all of Heaven's best....
One significant piece of the argument in favor of the wisdom of abstinence has been left out. It is what I call the apples/oranges problem with treating the terms "wine" or even "strong drink" in the Bible as equivalent to beverage alcohol marketed today. Google especially the old article by Robert Stein entitled "Wine Drinking in the Time of Jesus," which is still cited in medical journals that deal with the history of beverage alcohol. Once the vast discrepancy in alcohol content between then and now is combined with the very clear teaching against drunkenness and in favor of abstinence for leaders, the case for the wisdom (not law) of abstinence looks significantly stronger, don't you think?
In response to the above statement:
If the issue is drunkeness, and the drink wasn't as strong in Jesus time, how much would a person have to drink to get drunk back then? ... being "addicted to much wine" and getting drunk would have been a heck of a problem if they had to drink so much to get that way (and a deliberate act as well). That's why when you contextualize it in modern terms, drunkeness is the issue rather than abstaining or not. To get drunk in the first century, you probably had to have at least 10-20 servings...now it generally takes anywhere from 1 to 5, depending on the size of the person and the type of drink. I think the boundaries should be set in proportion to what a person knows about their body, and if you choose to drink you should do it responsibly and with accountability of someone who knows where your convictions are at.
Remember I am pointing to the increased attractiveness of the wisdom of abstaining and I get there by looking at the cumulative effect of the Biblical teaching against drunkenness, the apples/oranges issue, the requirement of abstinence in some cases (and in this case it is abstinence from the highly diluted wine!) and now lets throw in another passage, from Romans 14:21 "It is good not to eat meat or drink wine (the highly diluted wine) or do anything that causes your brother to stumble."
Legalism is not at issue in any way in the strongest arguments in favor of the wisdom of abstaining. It is a matter of prudence, wisdom. Once the apples/oranges data is faced then we see that the Bible contains no direct teaching about the consumption of the alcoholic beverages marketed today. But it does contain significant warnings and acknowledgement of the downside consuming even the greatly diluted alcoholic beverages available in the first century. The fact that I am not a young drinker but the parent of a young driver may compromise my objectivity in the eyes of some, but I would suggest that it opens my eyes to the real significance of the Biblical teaching for 21rst century believers.
In light of Romans 14, does not the intensity of some Christians’ (usually quite young) fight to keep their alcohol appear self-serving, unspiritual, and perhaps even hedonistic? Can you read Romans 14 carefully and then try to get your back up defending the consumption of alcohol with a good conscience? This confuses me. I can understand the continuance of the consumption but the good conscience about defending it fiercely? No. that strikes me as contrary to the teaching of Roman 14 which commends denial of personal preference or desire in consideration to the brother who might stumble, and this even in regard to idol meat which we know Paul considered perfectly wholsome to eat.
I'm not 'defending' the consumption of alcohol, but rather trying to understand it from a biblical perspective. If me drinking alcohol could cause one of my fellow brothers or sisters in Christ to stumble, then I wouldn't drink it. If I did come across that, then I would not drink in front of them, just as Paul would not eat meat in front of those who used to sacrifice that same meat to idols. Paul did say, however that "We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols?" (1 Cor. 8:8-10).
One other point that I'd like to bring up is that those who are "weak" in these passages are those who lived with a lifestyle and routine of eating this food sacrificed to idols and they were new Christians. Contextualizing this means that those who were addicted to alcohol and are new Christians are the ones we should be careful not to 'stumbilize' them. The reason I bring up this point is because so many people use the phrase 'stumbling block' so flippantly and make it mean that it's a stumbling block for them (a mature Christian) because they don't agree with it, rather than that it's a stumbling block for the weak (or those new to the Christian faith).
I also do not think that my age really has anything to do with my viewpoint other than the fact that most young adults that are not Christians happen to be in the bars, and that's where they make friends. Being in a bar doesn't necessarily mean that you are addicted to alcohol either. Many people who are at a local bar or pub may be addicted or have some kind of drinking problem, but they are not new Christians either. I guess the question to ask would be 'why was eating meat sacrificed to idols a stumbling block for weak/new Christians in the first century?" and "why is drinking alcohol a stumbling block for weak/new Christians today?" I can think of some reasons, but I think the discussion and the biblical issue/principle is displaced and doesn't really apply in the contexts that I'm thinking about.
Now factor in the apples and oranges issue and read you comment carefully. I was an intravenous drug user prior to my conversion. I understand why most folks hang around bars and drink and it is not because they can't find anything without alcohol that suits their taste, is it? Is it not the intoxicating effect of the beverage that they seek? And the scriptures teach that we should not become intoxicated. Have you really taken seriously the apples and oranges point. You seem to think that quoting passages about a beverage that is not at issue matters here.
Well I don't think that is the reason that people go out to bars. If they wanted to just have the intoxicating effect of a beverage it would be much cheaper to buy it at the store and drink at home. The real reason that people are out at bars (young people anyway), in many cases, is to get away from Christians and legalistic people and find a community atmosphere (much like church is a community atmosphere) away from home. Yes, many do get intoxicated, but they wouldn't do that if they were by themselves. And isn't it better to have a Christian presence in the bar rather than have none at all? You don't have to partake if that is a conviction of yours, but if you do, then know where to draw the line: 'do not get drunk...'
The beverage is not at issue in these passages, that is true. But I believe the principles behind Paul's message are, and that's what contextualizing is: bringing biblical principles and applying them to your everyday life in a concrete way. I hope what I'm saying makes more sense to you now. I understand your concern about this, and it is a valid concern. My father would agree with you. I just see a lot more potential for evangelism with my point of view and something that is different from bad stereotypes that Christians have from non-christians that is still biblical, although not a traditional American Church point of view.
I wholeheartedly applaud and admire the commitment that you and other younger believers have to the missional life. Your post is very good. I just want the strongest possible abstinence position to be dealt with, not weak versions that do not take the apples and oranges issue seriously. I view abstinence as a secondary issue for Christians (not primary but also not tertiary) and so I like to go at it awhile and then relax. I am relaxed now and wish to turn you over to your father and also pray that many come to know Jesus and his gospel in the bars you frequent. And am sure this is happening.
(4)
You are wise to start off in your work this way - honest about your choices and beliefs. this will save you a lot of grief, as compared to those who try to follow the party line early on, and then change their lifestyle later. Posted by tammy | Posted at 11/22/2006 4:51 AM
It is possible, though, to abstain completely AND not judge others who drink occasionally. I choose not to drink at all - not because my denomination will not allow it (I personally think that is a very poor excuse to stand behind and conviction and personal standards must run deeper than "I'm not allowed!" We outgrow that excuse when we become adults!) - but because it is a personal choice that I have made. I have friends and family members who have not made that same commitment and I am fine with that. What's interesting, though, is that I have been judged on occasion for NOT drinking. Either way, I think we all (meaning American Christians!) make too big a deal out of fermented fruit, vegetables, and grains :o). Posted by Leanne | Posted at 11/22/2006 8:46 AM
Let me tell why I choose to completely abstain from alcohol use.
When I started college I considered myself to be a devout Young Christian. I believed this even though I did drink some. Although I never at this time drank enough to become drunk. In all reality I would go out with friends, or to a party, drink a couple of beer so that I could be part of the crowd and that was it. Then I realized why I needed to change.
I was at a party on a Friday night, a party in which I was there for about 6 hours and only had 1 beer. Well that following Sunday I was at the rec center playing basketball when this other student shooting basketball started talking about how horrible his life was ... How much he hated life ... And why he had no reason to live anymore.
Well I did what I thought any good Christian should do. I started to tell him what life was all about. How it was simply about having a good relationship with Jesus Christ and then trusting Him.
Well that is where I got stopped dead in my tracks ... His reply was this ... How can you tell me about God and that He is what I need in my life. You are no better than I am. I saw you at the party Friday night drinking just like me, so why should I listen to you.
I tried to explain that I wasn't better than him. That we all are in the same boat because of sin, but that I was covered by the blood of Christ, and I had a wonderful eternal life in Heaven to look forward too.
Did he accept Christ? Did he listen?
No way. He said Christians are suppose to be different, and that you are not, because you drink just like I do. Therefore I don't anything to do with a religion that doesn't change people.
Did I feel like I was wrong for drinking one beer at a party?
No way
Did that matter?
Not at all ... My image and testimony were destroyed because I appeared to be no different than the rest of the world.
That is my perspective ...
I just wanted to give you something to think about
Posted by Jeff | Posted at 11/22/2006 1:38 PMon the other hand, i've had people listen to me because i am not a religious person - which to them means i drink sometimes and i know how to hang out with people who are not christians and i don't flinch when people swear.
it just depends who you are talking to.
i think the guy who wouldn't listen to Jeff may have been raised in a strict home and had a preconceived notion of what a christian is. maybe he needed to hear what Jeff said, and later thought about it in a different light ... or maybe not.
Posted by tammy | Posted at 11/22/2006 3:23 PMGood article, Brian. You covered a lot of bases with your writing. It is a difficult question that has a lot of American cultural stigma to overcome. Regardless of what position each of us may take on this issue, we need to respect those of other positions. That is exactly what Romans 14-15 is about.
I have a bar ministry and most of the time I drink Diet Pepsi with lime. But there are occasions where I will have a (as in one) beer. It has opened more doors than have closed. Frankly, I have never had a door for preaching the Gospel close because I had a beer. I have helped Atheists move to agnostics and to deists. I have been told I was the only (Christian) a person felt comfortable with and would talk with about personal issues.
Sure there are going to be people who will have problems with me having a beer. Most of those, however, grew up in cultural contexts where it was assumed that Christians don't or shouldn't drink. If a person has a problem with me drinking, I simply don't drink when I am around them.
The only thing I would disagree with, Brian, is that you and your wife don't drink around your kids. I grew up in an Italian culture. Drinking wine or beer was the norm. I had no desire to go off on a bender when I turned teenaged.
My wife and I have raised both our boys the same way. There was no mystique surrounding drinking. When they wanted a taste, we gave it to them. That was enough to turn them off. Neither of my boys, now 20 and 17, drink, not even when I am around. Both say they don't see the need.
All I am saying is don't create a "forbidden fruit" for their curiosities to dwell on. Be open and teach them about drinking responsibly when they are of age.
Posted by Frank | Posted at 11/22/2006 3:25 PMOne view I have that has changed since I wrote the article has to do with drinking in front of others. I still think it would be a good witness to people addicted to alcohol if you showed temperence by drinking just one or two drinks. The issue is a biblical witness of temperence rather than (seemingly) flaunting around the fact that you aren't drinking. I do think that God has placed alcohol here for us to enjoy it, but there must be temperence as with anything that we use whether food or drink. Posted by Brian Hoyer | Posted at 11/22/2006 4:12 PM
Brian, I really enjoyed your article. Thanks. Posted by Jemila Monroe | Posted at 11/24/2006 12:50 PM
This is just not an issue with the vast majority of the church around the world. It seems an issue only with western conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists.
My pastor says he doesn't drink so as not to tempt alcoholics, but he has railed against the evils of alcohol in sermons.
I like to remind folks - Jesus' first miracle was bartending!
one last thing...I have a friend (well-meaning) that has shared the exact argument that wine was very dilute in Jesus' day, and that's why it was permitted.. I'm not sure I buy that for two reasons. 1. Peter stands up on Pentecost and says "These men are not drunk...it's still early in the morning!" In other words, it wouldn't be a hugw surprise for them to be drunk later in the day.
2. A man at the wedding in Cana wonders that Jesus has brought out the best wine for last. The way he says this is "Typically they bring out the good stuff until people are drunk!" In other words, if Jesus is agqinst any alcohol except the dilute stuff, why was he bringing out the good wine when people have admittedly had enough already?
We should not be drunk on wine, but filled with the Holy Spirit.
God gave man wine to make his heart happy.
Cheers!
Posted by Joey | Posted at 11/24/2006 7:01 PMTwo weeks ago we brought a guest to our church on Sunday morning. She even participated in our adult Sunday school and said she enjoyed herself immensely. She hadn't been to church in about 20 years or so before that day.
At one point some of my friends asked me if we had known her very long. I said, no, we had just met her the night before in a local bar. My wife and I were there enjoying an excellent blues band along with a few libations and Sharon was also there and looking a little lonely....and well, anyway we had a good time.
I think sometimes when we speak of Jesus hanging out with the 'sinners' and lowlifes of Jewish society we think he was slumming - enduring their company because he loved them. I think he might actually have been enjoying himself, preferring their company to that of the priggish Pharisees. And guess what else? Those sinners and lowlifes - that's me and my friends!
Salute!
Posted by Christian Beyer | Posted at 11/24/2006 9:23 PMExcellent article. I too struggled with the question of drinking or not drinking myself since I come from a lifestyle of "social drinkers". I don't see anything biblical about drinking. Paul did write about partaking in meat sacrificed to idols as not losing our salvation but he also stated that we should not do anything to make someone else fall. My main objection is this.....every penny I make is a gift from God. He provides everything that I recieve. I also work with alot of ppl comming out of rehab. Beings that I feel like my "earnings" are God's, I will not support the companies that promote a product that has ruined so many lives. In saying this I in no way judge those who do drink. I don't think anyone is less a christian for drinking. But we have to ask God for guidence. Here is a case in point: A couple I know visited a prominent home church. I was very curious about them because I am very impressed with their structure. Well my friends came back with a report that "after worship, during fellowship time, they were all drinking beer". So needless to say they had a bad report. Now I have no problem with what this home church was doing. I myself wouldn't drink but I can see how a beer over dinner would be fine. I know alot of ppl are closed minded. But as christians we have to be careful because the whole world is watching us waiting for us to stumble. We cannot jepordize our witness.
J.
Posted by Jamey | Posted at 11/27/2006 5:42 PMHow many of your flock are you willing to invite to your next party Mr. Hoyer? I dont think this is right. Posted by Alexander | Posted at 11/27/2006 7:12 PM
Here's a thought: the message of grace, of God's unmerited love -- bestowed upon us by the life, death, and resurrection of His only begotten Son, and as explained to us through His Word and the teaching of the Holy Spirit -- is bigger than all of of this. If Jesus says that our light, that of puny, imperfect humans, cannot be hidden under a basket, how much more so the glorious divine love of our Heavenly Father! The Word promises that anyone He calls to Himself has been chosen from the beginnings of the world, so that tells me this issue of "should I drink? should I not? if I do, how much?" is not as big a deal as we think it is. Of course we should not deliberately do anything to stumble someone else, but the flip side of the coin is that anyone seeking to find a love that will not let them down will recognize Jesus and say "yes."
all of Heaven's best....
Posted by Margret Boyd | Posted at 11/27/2006 9:02 PMOne significant piece of the argument in favor of the wisdom of abstinence has been left out. It is what I call the apples/oranges problem with treating the terms "wine" or even "strong drink" in the Bible as equivalent to beverage alcohol marketed today. Google especially the old article by Robert Stein entitled "Wine Drinking in the Time of Jesus," which is still cited in medical journals that deal with the history of beverage alcohol. Once the vast discrepancy in alcohol content between then and now is combined with the very clear teaching against drunkenness and in favor of abstinence for leaders, the case for the wisdom (not law) of abstinence looks significantly stronger, don't you think? Posted by Mark DeVine | Posted at 11/29/2006 8:46 PM
In response to the above statement:
If the issue is drunkeness, and the drink wasn't as strong in Jesus time, how much would a person have to drink to get drunk back then? ... being "addicted to much wine" and getting drunk would have been a heck of a problem if they had to drink so much to get that way (and a deliberate act as well). That's why when you contextualize it in modern terms, drunkeness is the issue rather than abstaining or not. To get drunk in the first century, you probably had to have at least 10-20 servings...now it generally takes anywhere from 1 to 5, depending on the size of the person and the type of drink. I think the boundaries should be set in proportion to what a person knows about their body, and if you choose to drink you should do it responsibly and with accountability of someone who knows where your convictions are at.
Posted by Brian Hoyer | Posted at 11/29/2006 9:06 PMRemember I am pointing to the increased attractiveness of the wisdom of abstaining and I get there by looking at the cumulative effect of the Biblical teaching against drunkenness, the apples/oranges issue, the requirement of abstinence in some cases (and in this case it is abstinence from the highly diluted wine!) and now lets throw in another passage, from Romans 14:21 "It is good not to eat meat or drink wine (the highly diluted wine) or do anything that causes your brother to stumble."
Legalism is not at issue in any way in the strongest arguments in favor of the wisdom of abstaining. It is a matter of prudence, wisdom. Once the apples/oranges data is faced then we see that the Bible contains no direct teaching about the consumption of the alcoholic beverages marketed today. But it does contain significant warnings and acknowledgement of the downside consuming even the greatly diluted alcoholic beverages available in the first century. The fact that I am not a young drinker but the parent of a young driver may compromise my objectivity in the eyes of some, but I would suggest that it opens my eyes to the real significance of the Biblical teaching for 21rst century believers.
In light of Romans 14, does not the intensity of some Christians’ (usually quite young) fight to keep their alcohol appear self-serving, unspiritual, and perhaps even hedonistic? Can you read Romans 14 carefully and then try to get your back up defending the consumption of alcohol with a good conscience? This confuses me. I can understand the continuance of the consumption but the good conscience about defending it fiercely? No. that strikes me as contrary to the teaching of Roman 14 which commends denial of personal preference or desire in consideration to the brother who might stumble, and this even in regard to idol meat which we know Paul considered perfectly wholsome to eat.
Posted by Mark DeVine | Posted at 11/29/2006 10:00 PMI'm not 'defending' the consumption of alcohol, but rather trying to understand it from a biblical perspective. If me drinking alcohol could cause one of my fellow brothers or sisters in Christ to stumble, then I wouldn't drink it. If I did come across that, then I would not drink in front of them, just as Paul would not eat meat in front of those who used to sacrifice that same meat to idols. Paul did say, however that "We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols?" (1 Cor. 8:8-10).
One other point that I'd like to bring up is that those who are "weak" in these passages are those who lived with a lifestyle and routine of eating this food sacrificed to idols and they were new Christians. Contextualizing this means that those who were addicted to alcohol and are new Christians are the ones we should be careful not to 'stumbilize' them. The reason I bring up this point is because so many people use the phrase 'stumbling block' so flippantly and make it mean that it's a stumbling block for them (a mature Christian) because they don't agree with it, rather than that it's a stumbling block for the weak (or those new to the Christian faith).
I also do not think that my age really has anything to do with my viewpoint other than the fact that most young adults that are not Christians happen to be in the bars, and that's where they make friends. Being in a bar doesn't necessarily mean that you are addicted to alcohol either. Many people who are at a local bar or pub may be addicted or have some kind of drinking problem, but they are not new Christians either. I guess the question to ask would be 'why was eating meat sacrificed to idols a stumbling block for weak/new Christians in the first century?" and "why is drinking alcohol a stumbling block for weak/new Christians today?" I can think of some reasons, but I think the discussion and the biblical issue/principle is displaced and doesn't really apply in the contexts that I'm thinking about.
Posted by Brian Hoyer | Posted at 11/29/2006 10:33 PMNow factor in the apples and oranges issue and read you comment carefully. I was an intravenous drug user prior to my conversion. I understand why most folks hang around bars and drink and it is not because they can't find anything without alcohol that suits their taste, is it? Is it not the intoxicating effect of the beverage that they seek? And the scriptures teach that we should not become intoxicated. Have you really taken seriously the apples and oranges point. You seem to think that quoting passages about a beverage that is not at issue matters here. Posted by Mark DeVine | Posted at 11/30/2006 6:34 AM
Well I don't think that is the reason that people go out to bars. If they wanted to just have the intoxicating effect of a beverage it would be much cheaper to buy it at the store and drink at home. The real reason that people are out at bars (young people anyway), in many cases, is to get away from Christians and legalistic people and find a community atmosphere (much like church is a community atmosphere) away from home. Yes, many do get intoxicated, but they wouldn't do that if they were by themselves. And isn't it better to have a Christian presence in the bar rather than have none at all? You don't have to partake if that is a conviction of yours, but if you do, then know where to draw the line: 'do not get drunk...'
The beverage is not at issue in these passages, that is true. But I believe the principles behind Paul's message are, and that's what contextualizing is: bringing biblical principles and applying them to your everyday life in a concrete way. I hope what I'm saying makes more sense to you now. I understand your concern about this, and it is a valid concern. My father would agree with you. I just see a lot more potential for evangelism with my point of view and something that is different from bad stereotypes that Christians have from non-christians that is still biblical, although not a traditional American Church point of view.
Posted by Brian Hoyer | Posted at 11/30/2006 7:54 AMI wholeheartedly applaud and admire the commitment that you and other younger believers have to the missional life. Your post is very good. I just want the strongest possible abstinence position to be dealt with, not weak versions that do not take the apples and oranges issue seriously. I view abstinence as a secondary issue for Christians (not primary but also not tertiary) and so I like to go at it awhile and then relax. I am relaxed now and wish to turn you over to your father and also pray that many come to know Jesus and his gospel in the bars you frequent. And am sure this is happening. Posted by Mark DeVine | Posted at 11/30/2006 9:28 AM