It is true that Ezekiel 16:49 says, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." However, Ezekiel 16:50 says, "They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."
The word "detestable" harkens back to Leviticus and Deuteronomy, in which all kinds of things and activities are called "detestable to the Lord." Among them is Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." There is much that is apparently detestable to the Lord. Some of it is not detestable to me and frankly, some of it makes no sense to me. I struggle to try to live the best I can in accodance with God's values in the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace available through Jesus Christ.
Still, I try not to purposely ignore parts of the Bible that I don't like or quote Bible passages only partially so that I can use them to advance a political agenda. Acceptance and practice of homosexual behavior was not Sodom's only offense, but it was certainly one of them.
Could God be judging us because our emergent community leaders and commentators ignore the whole teaching of scripture on issues of sexual purity?
I agree with the article writer. We become so focused on the "safe" sins (safe to criticize, safe to abhor, safe to claim as central) that we ignore the ones to which all too many of us are prone: pride, arrogance, gluttony, etc.
It isn't a matter of ignoring sexual sins. As far as I can see, they're not the one's being given short shrift when we look at the life to which Christ calls us. I can hardly take three steps on the net without those issues being brought up. But when it comes to money, pride and wealth . . .
Could it be that the detestable things God was referring to were not helping the poor, being overfed and being unconcerned? There are a lot of things detestable in the eyes of God, homosexual acts being among them. The author makes a good point of widening the discussion. Modern Christianity tends to ignore justice more than emerging church leaders gloss over sexual sins. That's a broad statement without any references, but then, so was the original comment.
Interesting. I wrote a very similar article 3 years ago after attending a marriage rally. I even included Ninevah in contrast.
I guess I'd have to say this is a good article then!
It no longer suprises me that the establishment refuses to look at the tradition we live in. The article is incredibly correct and makes a great statement about our catagorizing sins and the judgement that will come because of homosexualty. This atricle did not glaze over the sexual impurity, it simply pointed out that our main problem could be a bit more than the obvious and easy to condemn sins of sexual impurity.
This article is a condensed chapter from my third book. The full chapter examines Jesus and Solomon relative to the four causes. Also, the set up for the chapter is Jesus' quote that the last days would be like the times of Noah and Lot. Too many people interpret the Bible on a superficial level; they focus on effects instead of causes. If the Bible was meant to be interpreted superficially, we'd have a non-contradictory explanation of the Bible that everyone agrees upon.
I believe the Bible was meant to be interpreted with the help of four concepts. I have found once these four concepts are applied, a non-contradictory interpretation of the Bible is achieved. These four concepts are: non-contradiction, growth, contrastive, and causality. (Check the website for more explanation.) This discussion relies heavily on causality.
Causality believes everything occurs for a reason. We might not know the reason, but that doesn't mean it is random. People abuse causality by saying "everything occurs for a reason" means God makes everything occur. Actually, "everything occurs for a reason" means that an effect came from a specific cause. Some "Christians" abuse causality by saying the Bible says an effect can only come from one possible cause. Actually, the Bible states a cause and gives the effect. Some "Christians" love to say everyone with this effect HAS to have the cause. They might, but effects can come from more than one cause.
If I drive down the highway at 100 mph with my eyes closed for 60 seconds, I will most likely have an accident. The effect (accident) came from a cause (driving down the road at 100 mph for 60 seconds with my eyes closed). However, it would be silly to say that ALL accidents come from people driving down the highway at 100 mph with their eyes closed for 60 seconds.
Some people go to embarrassing lengths to deny causality. The minute people say they don't believe in causality, I ask them why they get mad at people who do things to them...afterall, the person who injured them can't be held responsible if things are random.
Focusing on effects is like The Law; it is focused on the outside of the individual, the actions. Focusing on causes is like the New Testament; it is focused on the inside of the individual, the intent.
I was glad to read this article and agree with it 100%. I am a gay man and it really gets old that Christians have no problem pointing out my "sin" and neglect to realize that they too have "sin" in their life. Do they REALLY believe that God's judgement is on the United States because I am gay? Surely all their "normal" sins are not important to God and I am sure He understands (gossip, little white lies, judging others, pride etc) How much blood did Jesus have to shed to cover your sins? The same amount He had to shed to cover mine....all of it. I am not perfect, and I did not "choose" to be gay, I just am. You haven't walked in my shoes and I haven't walked in yours, so until we learn to fix ourselves FIRST we shouldn't be trying to fix everyone else. I don't believe God thinks it's okay to be gay, but He doesn't think it's okay to gossip either. Jesus said "I came in to the world to SAVE it NOT to CONDEMN it. We as Christians (yes, I am a christian too) if we "claim" to be Christ like should be doing the same. Show people through your ACTIONS that Jesus came to SAVE them, not condemn them. Jesus already has the Holy Spirit who works for Him full time to convict........he doesn't need you. I think once we realize that we are ALL sinners and we ALL contributed to Christs death on the cross we are better of accepting that I am not okay, you are ot okay but thats okay, cause no one was created perfect.
Just to clarify - I would never suggest that the sins JC identifies are not important. They are. Critically important. I was mostly reacting to the false dichotomy that seemed to be presented. It appeared to me that what was being said was that the sexual immorality of our culture was not important compared to the "four causes." JG goes so far as to imply that those who suggest that God may judge cultures for sexual immorality are wrong. They are not wrong. They are no more wrong than those who remind us that God judges cultures for greed, hypocricy, and abuse of the last, least, and lost.
Both are important. I would like to see more attention paid to the social justice issues that JG addresses in some churches that might be disparagingly referred to as "fundalmentalist." I would also like to see more focus on moral issues like abortion and such from "mainstream" anmd "pomo" churches.
I agree that it is much easier to condemn sin that we are not pesonally tempted by and that we tend towad blindness to our own sin, but that does not mean that the sin we can see and name should not be addressed.
We are called to hold one another accountable, to challenge each other, and to gracefully help hold each other up when we stumble. This is not condemnation. Love does not turn a blind eye when it sees another in danger. The refrain that "nobody is perfect" should not be used to minimize our own struggles or to keep us from being transparent to out brothers and sisters and be willing to be challenged to greater faithfulness. It is the highest abuse of grace to continue in sin once we are no longer slaves to sin.
First of all, thank you Dan for sharing with all in order to help make us better. It was an incredibly vulnerable act that speaks volumes about your character. I’d like to build on your points…
The passage everyone likes to quote against homosexuals is in Romans 1. Recall the previous causality explanation. Verse 26 begins the cause/effect relationship by saying, “For this cause…” The cause? Verses 21-23 talk about people not giving glory to God, suppressing the truth, and being vain in their reasoning. (Vain meaning unprofitable.)
The effects? Homosexuality is mentioned along with a lot of other sins people commit including lying. So the chapter essentially says these effects can come from people who suppress the truth and don’t give glory to God. This raises some interesting questions…
Do you treat people who lie the same way you treat homosexuals? Have you ever lied? Does that prove you are a truth suppresser and you don’t give glory to God?
Paul drops the hammer when he begins Romans 2... 1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Basically Paul then turns his attention to the reader and says if you judge any of these people (homosexuals, liars, etc.) you are twice as bad because first you are equal to them because you do the same things (have the same effects), but second you are worse because you judge them (have a worse intent).
What is our objective? If we want to help people should we be focused on the effects or the causes? Are our goals short term or long term? Are we helping others make progress or are we trying to alleviate our own guilt? Is this focus on “effects” vain or profitable?
JG Lenhart, I never heard the "cause/effect" theory before, very interesting. You mentioned that this article is a condensed version of your 3rd book...how do I get your books? I would love to read more of what you have to say, just the little that you wrote helped me a lot, thanks. Dan
Dan,
Thanks for the feedback!
The first book is currently being considered by a publisher. Until someone decides to publish the book, I can send it out to individuals for feedback.
If you are interested in a free e-copy of the first book, go to the website and click on the headline offering the e-copy.
If you want to sample the main parts of the book, there are mp3's on the four modeling principles, grace, faith, uniqueness, and Jesus' two messages.
JG-
First off, I would object to your characterization of those who take biblical sexual morality seriously (like Paul for example). You say that "everyone" "likes to quote" a passage "against homosexuals."
It is telling that this is your view of their motivations. If you build a straw man as your opponent, it is easy to destroy him. I don't believe that most people who believe that homosexual behavior (or other sexual behavior that does not give pleasure to God - fornication, adultery, sexual predation, etc.) is sinful are taking pleasure in condemning people or attempting to deny their own sin. I recognize the existence of the "God Hates Fags" wackos, but using them to make your point is like using Jim Jones and company to argue that Christians shouldn't share beverages.
Second, I realize that the whole cause - effect thing is primary to your premise, and your very spiffy website, but I don't think that the purpose of the passage in Romans is to make any such distinction. It is to establish guilt. Guilt for all. The reason we see the manifestations of evil Paul notes is because we ALL have chosen to rebel against God. We are without excuse because God has made it plain to us who he is and what is right.
The part in Romans 2 about judging is directed at the self-righteous, who think that they are somehow exempt from God's wrath. It is not a direction to make no value decisions. We are continually called to make judgments about right and wrong and good and evil. This is a warning against judging PEOPLE, not actions.
This whole line of reasoning is the foundation for the solution for the problem, as laid out in Romans 3, Faith in Jesus Christ.
Third, even if your cause effect thing is right, how does focusing on the cause benefit us? Both the cause and the effect are behaviors (at least in this passage). How are we to know whether we are truly loving unless we can see love in action (the effects of love). How are we to know whether a leader is submitting to God unless we see submissive behavior (the effects of submission)? How are we to judge how moral our nation is without a standard by which to measure? 1 John is all about measuring our faith by our actions and attitudes (the effects of faith). Throughout scripture the measure of behavior is used as evidence of the state of the heart.
Finally, I would point out that although there are many attitudes and behaviors "detestable" to God, there are very few organized advocacy groups arguing that those behaviors aren't really detestable. Other than NAMBLA, I don't see a lot of groups supporting legalized and normalized societal attitudes toward predatory sexual relationships between adults and children. I don't see many groups advocating that adultery be equated with marriage or that lying, cheating, stealing, greed, and coruption should just be considered lifestyle choices that the oppressive culture needs to stop discriminating against.
Part of the reason there is so much focus on homosexual behavior is that the issue has been forced to the front of the cultural debate by those who it would appear want us to call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter (Isaiah 5:20).
In the meantime, my personal experience has been that I was able to attend a pretty evangelical church for 15 years without ever hearing a single sermon specifically addressing sexual purity. Generally speaking, in most churches, moral issues are considered too divisive, so the church remains silent. A desire for “unity” trumps a desire for God’s truth.
Our objective is to be and make disciples - followers of Christ. Transormation happens from the inside out. The Holy Spirit plants a new heart in us and our desires change. There is a struggle, but we make progress. If our desires aren't changing, and we aren't progressing, what is the real state of our hearts?
Transformation also happens from the outside in. The Holy Spirit convicts me and I change my behavior. As I am tested and continue to resist, (sometimes falling but rising again) I grow stronger. God wants to build me up in strength. He wants ME to put away childish things even if I still desire them. He wants ME me to "work out my own salvation" as he empowers, encourages and upholds me. If I am not engaged in the process of my own tranformation, what is the state of my heart?
In Christ's love - Amen!
b0bbieb0b,
Thank you for pointing out the flaw in my opening statement. I should have qualified it to say "people who like to use the New Testament against homosexuals love to quote this passage".
You ask a lot of GREAT questions. I will try to give an overview because we are now discussing a complicated issue: we are talking about a worldview. This will be long and it will in no way answer every questions. How does focusing on the cause help us?
Ultimately, the question is "What is your objective?" I believe you want to help people and facilitate change in the lives of others by being used of the Holy Spirit. I could be wrong, but I will continue this way as if I'm mostly correct.
I have found that focusing on the effects as proof of the inside only leads to people getting defensive AND believing they have a reason NOT to change. The reason? They think I'm being "unChristian". Here's an example...
Grace and faith are the causes of salvation. Works are the result; they justify the causes. However, the New Testament warns that works are not the cause of salvation. People have abused this by making people do works thinking this results in the causes occurring.
The biggest problem we have is that we think we are under The Law. The Law was never given to me and I'm not supposed to allow anyone to put The Law on me. The Law focused on the effects and denied uniqueness. The Law works by telling us what not to do. How effective is that? How would you tell me to get to your house by ONLY telling me what NOT to do.
Jesus spoke principles. He didn't speak DON'Ts. Principles allow for uniqueness. Principles give a benefit instead of taking a value like The Law. Actually, there was a principle included in the 10 Commandments: Honor your father and mother...WHY? So that you may have a long life. Notice a benefit AND uniqueness. If the commandment told us specifically HOW to honor our parents, EVERYONE would do that (give flowers) AND some parents might NOT value that.
I have found the most efficient way to help others is to accept them and be the first to admit my shortcomings. We are all imperfect and we are all hurting. When I do this I find that people admit what they are doing is wrong and they are trying to work it out. They have guilt because "the Holy Spirit is working 100% of the time". Now they are in an environment that allows them to discuss ways to remove their guilt. These are causes.
When we hammer people over their actions it is almost like we think WE have to do all the work because God isn't real. When we understand God looks at causes, then we can look past the effects and focus on the causes. But we can't know the causes for sure unless people open up to us.
b0b, I made an assumption about you because in the past 6 months I have met a lot of people who remind me of you. They want to help people and they think the way is to get even tougher on the actions of others. I offered them the book. Once they read it, they changed how they approach people and they have seen tremendous results.
b0b, if you want a copy, please visit the website and send me an e-mail. The best way I can describe it is: the Holy Spirit does the work, but sometimes our worldview hinders our ability to hear clearly from God. Once people read the book, they are able to hear from God better AND they become more different from everyone else AND more themselves.
"Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."
Isn't it amazing how difficult we have made the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you realize that a Covenant/Promise was made with Abraham some 4000 years ago that still remains to this day. Are you aware that the law, which was added some 430 years later, did/does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed..."Jesus" to whom the promise referred, had come. (Gal. 3:17-19)
Notice that the law was added because of transgression, not lack of obedience,.... what is meant by transgression..... Not trusting God, rebellion, and/or our unbelief. This was the failure of the Israelites and continues to plague most modern day Christians today. You see, Jesus dealt with all your failure to measure up to the Mosaic Law, He took all judgment upon Himself, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son" (John5:22)
My Point! How could you ever merit, unmerited favor, which is the Grace of God? Stop trying to please God by doing stuff to seemingly keep God happy. Your perceived "disobedience" does not change how God relates to you and/or thinks about you. In fact, God never intended to ultimately relate to you by law. He desires that you believe.....that's IT! The sin that will kill you is not adultery but unbelief. Trust Him! What did God say in Luke 18:8 concerning when the Son of man comes...was He looking for obedience... or "will He find Faith on the earth?" Do you hear me? Many fear God is mad at them because of their present unfortunate circumstance. The question might be, "what did I do to cause this to happen to me?" Performance and Perfectionism still demand a standard, which can be measured, other than the standard of Jesus Christ. Do you know that your "Life" is hidden with Christ in God. "For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God." (Col 3:3). How is it that we still believe that our actions/inactions cause a Covenant/Promise to be null and void? God keeps no record of sin for Dead people. There is no judgment in Grace!
Do you remember what Paul shared with the Romans....."For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; (Rom 4:14) Now read the next two verses, "...for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith/belief, in order that it may be in accordance with grace (unmerited favor), so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith/belief of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Child of God, stand in the freedom appropriated by the cross. Do not let the devil intimidate you into thinking that God is judging you by the law/standards of performance. For you are dead to sin and alive to Jesus Christ. A covenant can only be broken by death. Believer, He died so you died.....the law can not go beyond the grave.
"So, my friends, this is something like what has taken place with you. When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God." (Romans 7:4-6) msg
Be Free!!!
Tripp,
I'm not trying to undo what you wrote, but I want to make sure people don't get the wrong idea about "grace". There are four words that are very important to me and they seem to be completely misunderstood by the majority of Christians. These words are: grace, life, truth, and love.
Grace is NOT "unmerited favor". That definition is from Webster's and tradition. It is contradictory to the Bible.
Grace in the New Testament is "charis" (Strong's 5485) and is defined as "the divine influence on the heart and its reflection in the life".
I challenge everyone to look at all the New Testament grace scriptures with this definition AND look the same scriptures with the definition of "unmerited favor". You will see charis fits EVERY instance and unmerited favor does not. You will also see that charis results in the true freedom Tripp mentions.
How are we to grow in unmerited favor? How are we supposed to understand umerited favor? Can we give umerited favor to others?
On my website I have two short mp3's that cover this. If you want a more detailed explanation there is also Bible study covering over a dozen scriptures showing the difference between the two and how "unmerited favor" doesn't stand up.
Our salvation is based on "grace through faith". It would seem to me we would want to know the true definitions of those two words: faith and grace.
Christianity is simply two things: 1)Do what God is telling you to do (grace) and 2)Confess and repent when you don't act in grace.
Anything else you add just creates a denomination.
JG Lenhart, thank you for writing this. I don't often read articles from Christians anymore because so much of what is written is brutal and bears little resemblance to the life or teaching of Jesus. If more "leaders" had the ability to understand this there would probably be more of the "lost" turning to Jesus. The church, most especially those who call themselves conservative or traditional, stands in the way, blocking many from ever seeing the truth of Christ. I'll be totally honest, I am a gay man who returned to the church after many years of wandering. And for 10 years I did what I thought God wanted me to, I left my job in the corporate world and attended a rather conservative Bible school, I participated in "ex-gay" ministries, submitted to counseling and disciplinary measures for mistakes. I left school and worked for a ministry in an urban environment for about 5 years, I thought it would be my life work. But ultimately I had to leave, to escape is more accurate. I was faced with the knowledge that I would have to sacrifice my integrity, my ethics and all the standards of honesty and truth that I was raised with if I wanted to continue in the path I had started and be a "christian" in the mold of much of the "conservative" church today. I would have to hate and call it love, to judge and call it discernment, to warp the teachings of Christ and rewrite them so they supported blind nationalism, cold-hearted disgust of all things "liberal" and most importantly use them in an anti-gay crusade that is vicious and anti-Christ to the core. So now, I have nothing. Oh I have a great job and all the things that look good to the world, but I am empty, bitter, angry and see little point to remaining alive. I have tasted the goodness of God and I know that it is true but what I have seen done in God's name, what I have experienced from God's people (in their eyes at least) has made it nearly impossible for me to feel safe ever again in a "christian" environment. Sorry, I've rambled too long here. To b0b, it's very religiously correct of you to use the quote from Isaiah in your justification of anti-gay attacks but in reality it has little to do with the issue. Well, maybe I'm wrong there. When applied to the heinous behaviour of segments of the conservative church towards LGBT people, it makes quite a bit of sense. Perhaps it would be helpful to take a look at who Jesus had the most pointed and corrective words for. Dave
The problem that I see is that homosexuals want people to accept that lifestyle and embrace it and say it is ok and get married, etc. We know there are many sins that people can commit but our society wants to say that is isn't wrong and if you think or say it is wrong, there is something wrong with you. It is one thing to be a homosexual and know that is it wrong but is it another thing to say there is nothing wrong with it and be proud of it and want to continue doing it and want everyone to never say anything contrary. If someone was greedy or lies or is an adulter, glutton or drunkard and someone labeled that as wrong I think most would agree but that doesn't seem to be the case with homosexuality.
This article is over 5 weeks old and hidden from public view, yet it is still eliciting insightful comments. Thanks to all who took the time to share their thoughts and pointed others towards the article! Now, I’d like to take this opportunity to bring us back to the main point of the article:
All sin is the same. IF there is one sin that is worse than all others, it is NOT homosexuality…despite what our religious leaders have taught us. Technically, it doesn’t even make the top four. According to the Bible, the top four sins (if there is such a thing) would be the ones that cause God to bring AND avert judgment.
JMS, I would challenge you to look at the 9th comment. The list in Romans that mentions homosexuality also includes lying. I believe you can find a lot of people who would justify everything from “white lies” to “spin” to “not telling the whole truth” to boldface lying. Again, I would challenge all Christians who feel called to “help” homosexuals (and represent Christ) by condemning them, to reread the 9th comment (Romans 2:1-3) AND substitute the word “liar” for “homosexual” whenever they feel the need to pontificate on this subject. See if your comments still make sense and aren’t self condemning.
The REAL issue is that Christians have made NO progress on the topic of homosexuality. Look at the Big Picture. The fundamentalists/traditionalists would tell you that it is the worst sin and the way to interact with homosexuals is to condemn, berate, and marginalize them. The post-moderns would tell you Jesus would never have treated homosexuals this way and that it isn’t a sin at all. Yet, we ALL know neither of these responses is completely accurate. What is the right answer?
Obviously the answer requires us to go much deeper. Have you read the post that precedes yours? Dave’s post was vulnerable, self aware, and compelling. It took a lot of courage to share his private thoughts and it left me changed. How can what he experienced be something that meets with Jesus’ approval? Don’t we want to determine the right answer or at the very least get past our current superficial perspectives?
It would take 2000 words to give an answer that takes us deeper, past the current tired rhetoric. In fact, I could ask you your definition of “homosexual” and get you to change your definition at least twice after asking a few questions. How can we have an opinion about something when we don’t know what we are talking about? However, Christians have this SAME problem with ALL of the major topics on THEOOZE. Don’t we want to take ALL of these topics deeper? Or do we want to be like all the generations that preceded us and continue to spout superficial explanations? Are we really helping people?
On Monday, July 24th, I have another article posting in the culture section. I believe this article will explain the reason why we haven’t taken ANY of these discussions deeper AND give the solution for how to do it in the future.
After you have read that article, perhaps you will be able to tell me the more correct answer to this and other issues.
i find it very interesting that the comments that were the most offended by the subject of the article DID NOT address either Dan or Dave. It does not sound to me that they are part of a huge homosexual-machine that is trying to convert everyone over to their agenda, which was the main argument of a couple of the comentators. They both sound as if they are/were struggling with how to be christian and gay or how to be with christians and gay. Honestly, I would rather sit down and talk with you, Dan and Dave, than with someone who is defending an arbitrary argument. What is the point of having a conviction to love the sinner and hate the sin if you don't even address the sinner? JG, thank you for the article. Dan and Dave, God bless you and keep you.
It's interesting to me that this turned into a sexual morality discussion rather than a discussion about the point of the article - is God punishing America.
This postmodernism is new for me - intriguing; smacking so true on one hand and offensive on the other. What have I found offensive? For one, I'm a conservative politically. That seems to be a dirty thing to post modern thinkers and writers. The stereotypes I've read in postmodern writing would lead me to bash conservatives too if what I have read actaully describes what I understand conservatism to be (and it's not Pat Robertson - that said, I also resist judging anyone who happens to like Pat) Secondly, there seems to be a "hate America first" thread that runs through post modern spirituality. Im not American. I'm a Canadian who gratefully lives stateside. Why is it we must through everything that's good about this nation out with the bathwater of what liberalism seems to hate about the U.S?
Is there room in the tent for people like me in your post modern theology/spirituality? It really is frustrating, and frankly painful. There's so much here that is beautiful - that rings true in my spirit, and then there's this other part that seems to be all about gving liberalism and spiritual/righteous arm. Is that what this is really about - spiritualizing politics? If there isn't a way for consevatives and liberals to live out the love of God tangibly then isn't postmodernism just another label for something that still doesn't cut it?
Thanks much.
Hungry, yet hesitant, Cyn
Dear Lenhart,
Grace- "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life"
I do not find it a stretch believing the Jesus Christ influence and its reflection in my life can translate into "Unmerited Favor" Hence, the life I live is not even my own but the "Life" of Christ within me.
It is all about the "Miraculous Life" within and nothing about me.
"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;..............." Gal. 2:19-20.
You stated:
"Christianity is simply two things: 1)Do what God is telling you to do (grace) and 2)Confess and repent when you don't act in grace."
Those two requirements of "Christianity" seem to me to be mere standards/laws..... other than the Standard/Law of Jesus Christ.
Grace to you,
Tripp
Tripp,
Certainly the first half of Charis ("the divine influence on the heart") is an example of unmerited favor. However, grace doesn't end there.
There is a BIG difference between a LAW and a PRINCIPLE. A LAW states what not to do and results in a penalty. A PRINCIPLE states what to DO and results in a benefit.
PRINCIPLES also encourage uniqueness. LAWS try to make everyone the same. Those two PRINCIPLES I list are the PRINCIPLES of what all we need to do in our day to day lives in order to follow Jesus.
Jesus DIDN'T speak in terms of LAWS...he spoke in PRINCIPLES.
More to the point, the definition I shared is on the bottom rung of the ladder of abstraction. (Check out Bessie the Cow on my website for a more indepth explanation.) We need to define our terms specifically, or we are not going to understand each other and make progress.
For instance, what specifically is the "Standard/Law of Jesus Christ" according to you? You love to use the term "life" in your post. What is your definition of "life"?
What is eternal life? If it means we exist forever, doesn't the Bible say people in hell exist forever?
All of this stuff is fun to talk about in the abstract, but we are supposed to be able to understand the real (specific) definitions of the words we use to explain our beliefs: grace, truth, life, love, etc. We all say we are for these concepts, yet we don't agree on what they are...
What do you mean?
JG,
Jesus Christ did not just come to show us the way; He is the way. He did not just teach us some truth: He is the truth. He did not just leave us a manual to live by. He is our life. Whatever the need of the human heart, Christ offers Himself as the solution. His eternal answer is "I am".
Rather than digging out of the Bible principles that we apply like a technician to repair our own lives, we are to go to the Word of God to get to know the Person of Jesus Christ, the living Word!
Col 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our/your life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Someone once said: "The Christian life can only be explained in terms of Jesus Christ, and if your life as a Christian can still be explained in terms of you your personality, your willpower, your gift, your talent, your money, your courage, your scholarship, your dedication, your sacrifice, or your anything then although you may have the Christian life, you are not yet living it!"
Live "Life" Tripp
Tripp,
I agree with the last paragraph. The question is "What specifically is life?" If you can't define it specficially, then how can you tell someone they are wrong when they define it differently than you.
As for the technician comment...everyone who says that is actually a technician themselves. Everyone has a model for God, Salvation, Jesus, etc. Your model for life as you've stated is the last paragraph.
Why not be a better technician and give an answer that opens doors to greater understanding and causes people to let the Holy Spirit direct their life more and cause them to read their Bible more?
CS Lewis said life was the ability to repair.
You are alive because your cells spend ALL THEIR TIME repairing…that is “life”.
Look at the implications of this definition:
Jesus didn’t come so we would be happy and never have problems. He came so we would have the ability to repair our problems and be able to do that abundantly.
This perspective gives a much deeper and clearer explanation of the scriptures…
When the Bible talks about “these words ARE life”…the words have the ability to repair.
The Old Testament says the life is in the blood…the ability to repair is in the blood. So the ultimate ability to repair would be in the ultimate blood…which is Jesus’. Jesus is the ultimate ability to repair: mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc. It ALL comes from him.
Eternal life means we will have the ability to repair for eternity…people in hell won’t be able to repair, they will continue to be destroyed.
People judge their (and other’s) existence and marriage by the lack of problems. Actually, the sign of a great life and marriage is the ability to repair the problems.
Tripp, you are obviously an intelligent person who has a passion for Jesus. All I'm trying to do is help people grow deeper in their relationship with the Holy Spirit so they can help others.
Please feel free to contact me via e-mail because I would love to continue this conversation in private.
JG,
"Life" is Jesus Christ...................Nothing more!!!
What if God defines a little differently than we do?
Possibly our definitions are more about fleshy perspectives/illusions than finished realities.
I know we differ in idealogy....I am not looking for a debate.
Just maybe a cerebral approach to our questions isn't necessarily the only solution and/or answer.
JG, thanks for listening and I look forward to ongoing discussions in the future.
Tripp
(30)
It is true that Ezekiel 16:49 says, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." However, Ezekiel 16:50 says, "They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."
The word "detestable" harkens back to Leviticus and Deuteronomy, in which all kinds of things and activities are called "detestable to the Lord." Among them is Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." There is much that is apparently detestable to the Lord. Some of it is not detestable to me and frankly, some of it makes no sense to me. I struggle to try to live the best I can in accodance with God's values in the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace available through Jesus Christ.
Still, I try not to purposely ignore parts of the Bible that I don't like or quote Bible passages only partially so that I can use them to advance a political agenda. Acceptance and practice of homosexual behavior was not Sodom's only offense, but it was certainly one of them.
Could God be judging us because our emergent community leaders and commentators ignore the whole teaching of scripture on issues of sexual purity?
Posted by b0bbieb0b | Posted at 06/12/2006 6:09 AMI agree with the article writer. We become so focused on the "safe" sins (safe to criticize, safe to abhor, safe to claim as central) that we ignore the ones to which all too many of us are prone: pride, arrogance, gluttony, etc.
It isn't a matter of ignoring sexual sins. As far as I can see, they're not the one's being given short shrift when we look at the life to which Christ calls us. I can hardly take three steps on the net without those issues being brought up. But when it comes to money, pride and wealth . . .
Posted by William Calhoun | Posted at 06/12/2006 2:51 PMCould it be that the detestable things God was referring to were not helping the poor, being overfed and being unconcerned? There are a lot of things detestable in the eyes of God, homosexual acts being among them. The author makes a good point of widening the discussion. Modern Christianity tends to ignore justice more than emerging church leaders gloss over sexual sins. That's a broad statement without any references, but then, so was the original comment. Posted by Bob | Posted at 06/13/2006 6:28 AM
Interesting. I wrote a very similar article 3 years ago after attending a marriage rally. I even included Ninevah in contrast.
I guess I'd have to say this is a good article then!
Posted by 2e | Posted at 06/13/2006 9:26 AMIt no longer suprises me that the establishment refuses to look at the tradition we live in. The article is incredibly correct and makes a great statement about our catagorizing sins and the judgement that will come because of homosexualty. This atricle did not glaze over the sexual impurity, it simply pointed out that our main problem could be a bit more than the obvious and easy to condemn sins of sexual impurity. Posted by jly | Posted at 06/14/2006 7:30 PM
This article is a condensed chapter from my third book. The full chapter examines Jesus and Solomon relative to the four causes. Also, the set up for the chapter is Jesus' quote that the last days would be like the times of Noah and Lot. Too many people interpret the Bible on a superficial level; they focus on effects instead of causes. If the Bible was meant to be interpreted superficially, we'd have a non-contradictory explanation of the Bible that everyone agrees upon.
I believe the Bible was meant to be interpreted with the help of four concepts. I have found once these four concepts are applied, a non-contradictory interpretation of the Bible is achieved. These four concepts are: non-contradiction, growth, contrastive, and causality. (Check the website for more explanation.) This discussion relies heavily on causality.
Causality believes everything occurs for a reason. We might not know the reason, but that doesn't mean it is random. People abuse causality by saying "everything occurs for a reason" means God makes everything occur. Actually, "everything occurs for a reason" means that an effect came from a specific cause. Some "Christians" abuse causality by saying the Bible says an effect can only come from one possible cause. Actually, the Bible states a cause and gives the effect. Some "Christians" love to say everyone with this effect HAS to have the cause. They might, but effects can come from more than one cause.
If I drive down the highway at 100 mph with my eyes closed for 60 seconds, I will most likely have an accident. The effect (accident) came from a cause (driving down the road at 100 mph for 60 seconds with my eyes closed). However, it would be silly to say that ALL accidents come from people driving down the highway at 100 mph with their eyes closed for 60 seconds.
Some people go to embarrassing lengths to deny causality. The minute people say they don't believe in causality, I ask them why they get mad at people who do things to them...afterall, the person who injured them can't be held responsible if things are random.
Focusing on effects is like The Law; it is focused on the outside of the individual, the actions. Focusing on causes is like the New Testament; it is focused on the inside of the individual, the intent.
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 06/14/2006 7:34 PMI was glad to read this article and agree with it 100%. I am a gay man and it really gets old that Christians have no problem pointing out my "sin" and neglect to realize that they too have "sin" in their life. Do they REALLY believe that God's judgement is on the United States because I am gay? Surely all their "normal" sins are not important to God and I am sure He understands (gossip, little white lies, judging others, pride etc) How much blood did Jesus have to shed to cover your sins? The same amount He had to shed to cover mine....all of it. I am not perfect, and I did not "choose" to be gay, I just am. You haven't walked in my shoes and I haven't walked in yours, so until we learn to fix ourselves FIRST we shouldn't be trying to fix everyone else. I don't believe God thinks it's okay to be gay, but He doesn't think it's okay to gossip either. Jesus said "I came in to the world to SAVE it NOT to CONDEMN it. We as Christians (yes, I am a christian too) if we "claim" to be Christ like should be doing the same. Show people through your ACTIONS that Jesus came to SAVE them, not condemn them. Jesus already has the Holy Spirit who works for Him full time to convict........he doesn't need you. I think once we realize that we are ALL sinners and we ALL contributed to Christs death on the cross we are better of accepting that I am not okay, you are ot okay but thats okay, cause no one was created perfect. Posted by Dan | Posted at 06/15/2006 5:47 AM
Just to clarify - I would never suggest that the sins JC identifies are not important. They are. Critically important. I was mostly reacting to the false dichotomy that seemed to be presented. It appeared to me that what was being said was that the sexual immorality of our culture was not important compared to the "four causes." JG goes so far as to imply that those who suggest that God may judge cultures for sexual immorality are wrong. They are not wrong. They are no more wrong than those who remind us that God judges cultures for greed, hypocricy, and abuse of the last, least, and lost.
Both are important. I would like to see more attention paid to the social justice issues that JG addresses in some churches that might be disparagingly referred to as "fundalmentalist." I would also like to see more focus on moral issues like abortion and such from "mainstream" anmd "pomo" churches.
I agree that it is much easier to condemn sin that we are not pesonally tempted by and that we tend towad blindness to our own sin, but that does not mean that the sin we can see and name should not be addressed.
We are called to hold one another accountable, to challenge each other, and to gracefully help hold each other up when we stumble. This is not condemnation. Love does not turn a blind eye when it sees another in danger. The refrain that "nobody is perfect" should not be used to minimize our own struggles or to keep us from being transparent to out brothers and sisters and be willing to be challenged to greater faithfulness. It is the highest abuse of grace to continue in sin once we are no longer slaves to sin.
Posted by b0bbieb0b | Posted at 06/15/2006 7:20 AMFirst of all, thank you Dan for sharing with all in order to help make us better. It was an incredibly vulnerable act that speaks volumes about your character. I’d like to build on your points…
The passage everyone likes to quote against homosexuals is in Romans 1. Recall the previous causality explanation. Verse 26 begins the cause/effect relationship by saying, “For this cause…” The cause? Verses 21-23 talk about people not giving glory to God, suppressing the truth, and being vain in their reasoning. (Vain meaning unprofitable.)
The effects? Homosexuality is mentioned along with a lot of other sins people commit including lying. So the chapter essentially says these effects can come from people who suppress the truth and don’t give glory to God. This raises some interesting questions…
Do you treat people who lie the same way you treat homosexuals? Have you ever lied? Does that prove you are a truth suppresser and you don’t give glory to God?
Paul drops the hammer when he begins Romans 2... 1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Basically Paul then turns his attention to the reader and says if you judge any of these people (homosexuals, liars, etc.) you are twice as bad because first you are equal to them because you do the same things (have the same effects), but second you are worse because you judge them (have a worse intent).
What is our objective? If we want to help people should we be focused on the effects or the causes? Are our goals short term or long term? Are we helping others make progress or are we trying to alleviate our own guilt? Is this focus on “effects” vain or profitable?
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 06/15/2006 9:36 AMJG Lenhart, I never heard the "cause/effect" theory before, very interesting. You mentioned that this article is a condensed version of your 3rd book...how do I get your books? I would love to read more of what you have to say, just the little that you wrote helped me a lot, thanks. Dan Posted by Dan | Posted at 06/16/2006 5:13 AM
Dan,
Thanks for the feedback!
The first book is currently being considered by a publisher. Until someone decides to publish the book, I can send it out to individuals for feedback.
If you are interested in a free e-copy of the first book, go to the website and click on the headline offering the e-copy.
If you want to sample the main parts of the book, there are mp3's on the four modeling principles, grace, faith, uniqueness, and Jesus' two messages.
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 06/16/2006 5:54 AMJG-
First off, I would object to your characterization of those who take biblical sexual morality seriously (like Paul for example). You say that "everyone" "likes to quote" a passage "against homosexuals."
It is telling that this is your view of their motivations. If you build a straw man as your opponent, it is easy to destroy him. I don't believe that most people who believe that homosexual behavior (or other sexual behavior that does not give pleasure to God - fornication, adultery, sexual predation, etc.) is sinful are taking pleasure in condemning people or attempting to deny their own sin. I recognize the existence of the "God Hates Fags" wackos, but using them to make your point is like using Jim Jones and company to argue that Christians shouldn't share beverages.
Second, I realize that the whole cause - effect thing is primary to your premise, and your very spiffy website, but I don't think that the purpose of the passage in Romans is to make any such distinction. It is to establish guilt. Guilt for all. The reason we see the manifestations of evil Paul notes is because we ALL have chosen to rebel against God. We are without excuse because God has made it plain to us who he is and what is right.
The part in Romans 2 about judging is directed at the self-righteous, who think that they are somehow exempt from God's wrath. It is not a direction to make no value decisions. We are continually called to make judgments about right and wrong and good and evil. This is a warning against judging PEOPLE, not actions.
This whole line of reasoning is the foundation for the solution for the problem, as laid out in Romans 3, Faith in Jesus Christ.
Third, even if your cause effect thing is right, how does focusing on the cause benefit us? Both the cause and the effect are behaviors (at least in this passage). How are we to know whether we are truly loving unless we can see love in action (the effects of love). How are we to know whether a leader is submitting to God unless we see submissive behavior (the effects of submission)? How are we to judge how moral our nation is without a standard by which to measure? 1 John is all about measuring our faith by our actions and attitudes (the effects of faith). Throughout scripture the measure of behavior is used as evidence of the state of the heart.
Finally, I would point out that although there are many attitudes and behaviors "detestable" to God, there are very few organized advocacy groups arguing that those behaviors aren't really detestable. Other than NAMBLA, I don't see a lot of groups supporting legalized and normalized societal attitudes toward predatory sexual relationships between adults and children. I don't see many groups advocating that adultery be equated with marriage or that lying, cheating, stealing, greed, and coruption should just be considered lifestyle choices that the oppressive culture needs to stop discriminating against.
Part of the reason there is so much focus on homosexual behavior is that the issue has been forced to the front of the cultural debate by those who it would appear want us to call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter (Isaiah 5:20).
In the meantime, my personal experience has been that I was able to attend a pretty evangelical church for 15 years without ever hearing a single sermon specifically addressing sexual purity. Generally speaking, in most churches, moral issues are considered too divisive, so the church remains silent. A desire for “unity” trumps a desire for God’s truth.
Our objective is to be and make disciples - followers of Christ. Transormation happens from the inside out. The Holy Spirit plants a new heart in us and our desires change. There is a struggle, but we make progress. If our desires aren't changing, and we aren't progressing, what is the real state of our hearts?
Transformation also happens from the outside in. The Holy Spirit convicts me and I change my behavior. As I am tested and continue to resist, (sometimes falling but rising again) I grow stronger. God wants to build me up in strength. He wants ME to put away childish things even if I still desire them. He wants ME me to "work out my own salvation" as he empowers, encourages and upholds me. If I am not engaged in the process of my own tranformation, what is the state of my heart?
In Christ's love - Amen!
Posted by b0bbieb0b | Posted at 06/16/2006 6:18 AMb0bbieb0b,
Thank you for pointing out the flaw in my opening statement. I should have qualified it to say "people who like to use the New Testament against homosexuals love to quote this passage".
You ask a lot of GREAT questions. I will try to give an overview because we are now discussing a complicated issue: we are talking about a worldview. This will be long and it will in no way answer every questions. How does focusing on the cause help us?
Ultimately, the question is "What is your objective?" I believe you want to help people and facilitate change in the lives of others by being used of the Holy Spirit. I could be wrong, but I will continue this way as if I'm mostly correct.
I have found that focusing on the effects as proof of the inside only leads to people getting defensive AND believing they have a reason NOT to change. The reason? They think I'm being "unChristian". Here's an example...
Grace and faith are the causes of salvation. Works are the result; they justify the causes. However, the New Testament warns that works are not the cause of salvation. People have abused this by making people do works thinking this results in the causes occurring.
The biggest problem we have is that we think we are under The Law. The Law was never given to me and I'm not supposed to allow anyone to put The Law on me. The Law focused on the effects and denied uniqueness. The Law works by telling us what not to do. How effective is that? How would you tell me to get to your house by ONLY telling me what NOT to do.
Jesus spoke principles. He didn't speak DON'Ts. Principles allow for uniqueness. Principles give a benefit instead of taking a value like The Law. Actually, there was a principle included in the 10 Commandments: Honor your father and mother...WHY? So that you may have a long life. Notice a benefit AND uniqueness. If the commandment told us specifically HOW to honor our parents, EVERYONE would do that (give flowers) AND some parents might NOT value that.
I have found the most efficient way to help others is to accept them and be the first to admit my shortcomings. We are all imperfect and we are all hurting. When I do this I find that people admit what they are doing is wrong and they are trying to work it out. They have guilt because "the Holy Spirit is working 100% of the time". Now they are in an environment that allows them to discuss ways to remove their guilt. These are causes.
When we hammer people over their actions it is almost like we think WE have to do all the work because God isn't real. When we understand God looks at causes, then we can look past the effects and focus on the causes. But we can't know the causes for sure unless people open up to us.
b0b, I made an assumption about you because in the past 6 months I have met a lot of people who remind me of you. They want to help people and they think the way is to get even tougher on the actions of others. I offered them the book. Once they read it, they changed how they approach people and they have seen tremendous results.
b0b, if you want a copy, please visit the website and send me an e-mail. The best way I can describe it is: the Holy Spirit does the work, but sometimes our worldview hinders our ability to hear clearly from God. Once people read the book, they are able to hear from God better AND they become more different from everyone else AND more themselves.
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 06/16/2006 8:17 AM"Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."
Isn't it amazing how difficult we have made the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you realize that a Covenant/Promise was made with Abraham some 4000 years ago that still remains to this day. Are you aware that the law, which was added some 430 years later, did/does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed..."Jesus" to whom the promise referred, had come. (Gal. 3:17-19)
Notice that the law was added because of transgression, not lack of obedience,.... what is meant by transgression..... Not trusting God, rebellion, and/or our unbelief. This was the failure of the Israelites and continues to plague most modern day Christians today. You see, Jesus dealt with all your failure to measure up to the Mosaic Law, He took all judgment upon Himself, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son" (John5:22)
My Point! How could you ever merit, unmerited favor, which is the Grace of God? Stop trying to please God by doing stuff to seemingly keep God happy. Your perceived "disobedience" does not change how God relates to you and/or thinks about you. In fact, God never intended to ultimately relate to you by law. He desires that you believe.....that's IT! The sin that will kill you is not adultery but unbelief. Trust Him! What did God say in Luke 18:8 concerning when the Son of man comes...was He looking for obedience... or "will He find Faith on the earth?" Do you hear me? Many fear God is mad at them because of their present unfortunate circumstance. The question might be, "what did I do to cause this to happen to me?" Performance and Perfectionism still demand a standard, which can be measured, other than the standard of Jesus Christ. Do you know that your "Life" is hidden with Christ in God. "For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God." (Col 3:3). How is it that we still believe that our actions/inactions cause a Covenant/Promise to be null and void? God keeps no record of sin for Dead people. There is no judgment in Grace!
Do you remember what Paul shared with the Romans....."For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; (Rom 4:14) Now read the next two verses, "...for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith/belief, in order that it may be in accordance with grace (unmerited favor), so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith/belief of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Child of God, stand in the freedom appropriated by the cross. Do not let the devil intimidate you into thinking that God is judging you by the law/standards of performance. For you are dead to sin and alive to Jesus Christ. A covenant can only be broken by death. Believer, He died so you died.....the law can not go beyond the grave.
"So, my friends, this is something like what has taken place with you. When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God." (Romans 7:4-6) msg
Be Free!!!
Posted by Tripp Campbell | Posted at 06/22/2006 6:03 AMTripp,
I'm not trying to undo what you wrote, but I want to make sure people don't get the wrong idea about "grace". There are four words that are very important to me and they seem to be completely misunderstood by the majority of Christians. These words are: grace, life, truth, and love.
Grace is NOT "unmerited favor". That definition is from Webster's and tradition. It is contradictory to the Bible.
Grace in the New Testament is "charis" (Strong's 5485) and is defined as "the divine influence on the heart and its reflection in the life".
I challenge everyone to look at all the New Testament grace scriptures with this definition AND look the same scriptures with the definition of "unmerited favor". You will see charis fits EVERY instance and unmerited favor does not. You will also see that charis results in the true freedom Tripp mentions.
How are we to grow in unmerited favor? How are we supposed to understand umerited favor? Can we give umerited favor to others?
On my website I have two short mp3's that cover this. If you want a more detailed explanation there is also Bible study covering over a dozen scriptures showing the difference between the two and how "unmerited favor" doesn't stand up.
Our salvation is based on "grace through faith". It would seem to me we would want to know the true definitions of those two words: faith and grace.
Christianity is simply two things: 1)Do what God is telling you to do (grace) and 2)Confess and repent when you don't act in grace.
Anything else you add just creates a denomination.
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 06/22/2006 6:24 AMJG Lenhart, thank you for writing this. I don't often read articles from Christians anymore because so much of what is written is brutal and bears little resemblance to the life or teaching of Jesus. If more "leaders" had the ability to understand this there would probably be more of the "lost" turning to Jesus. The church, most especially those who call themselves conservative or traditional, stands in the way, blocking many from ever seeing the truth of Christ. I'll be totally honest, I am a gay man who returned to the church after many years of wandering. And for 10 years I did what I thought God wanted me to, I left my job in the corporate world and attended a rather conservative Bible school, I participated in "ex-gay" ministries, submitted to counseling and disciplinary measures for mistakes. I left school and worked for a ministry in an urban environment for about 5 years, I thought it would be my life work. But ultimately I had to leave, to escape is more accurate. I was faced with the knowledge that I would have to sacrifice my integrity, my ethics and all the standards of honesty and truth that I was raised with if I wanted to continue in the path I had started and be a "christian" in the mold of much of the "conservative" church today. I would have to hate and call it love, to judge and call it discernment, to warp the teachings of Christ and rewrite them so they supported blind nationalism, cold-hearted disgust of all things "liberal" and most importantly use them in an anti-gay crusade that is vicious and anti-Christ to the core. So now, I have nothing. Oh I have a great job and all the things that look good to the world, but I am empty, bitter, angry and see little point to remaining alive. I have tasted the goodness of God and I know that it is true but what I have seen done in God's name, what I have experienced from God's people (in their eyes at least) has made it nearly impossible for me to feel safe ever again in a "christian" environment. Sorry, I've rambled too long here. To b0b, it's very religiously correct of you to use the quote from Isaiah in your justification of anti-gay attacks but in reality it has little to do with the issue. Well, maybe I'm wrong there. When applied to the heinous behaviour of segments of the conservative church towards LGBT people, it makes quite a bit of sense. Perhaps it would be helpful to take a look at who Jesus had the most pointed and corrective words for. Dave Posted by Dave | Posted at 07/04/2006 5:15 PM
The problem that I see is that homosexuals want people to accept that lifestyle and embrace it and say it is ok and get married, etc. We know there are many sins that people can commit but our society wants to say that is isn't wrong and if you think or say it is wrong, there is something wrong with you. It is one thing to be a homosexual and know that is it wrong but is it another thing to say there is nothing wrong with it and be proud of it and want to continue doing it and want everyone to never say anything contrary. If someone was greedy or lies or is an adulter, glutton or drunkard and someone labeled that as wrong I think most would agree but that doesn't seem to be the case with homosexuality. Posted by JMS | Posted at 07/19/2006 6:07 PM
This article is over 5 weeks old and hidden from public view, yet it is still eliciting insightful comments. Thanks to all who took the time to share their thoughts and pointed others towards the article! Now, I’d like to take this opportunity to bring us back to the main point of the article:
All sin is the same. IF there is one sin that is worse than all others, it is NOT homosexuality…despite what our religious leaders have taught us. Technically, it doesn’t even make the top four. According to the Bible, the top four sins (if there is such a thing) would be the ones that cause God to bring AND avert judgment.
JMS, I would challenge you to look at the 9th comment. The list in Romans that mentions homosexuality also includes lying. I believe you can find a lot of people who would justify everything from “white lies” to “spin” to “not telling the whole truth” to boldface lying. Again, I would challenge all Christians who feel called to “help” homosexuals (and represent Christ) by condemning them, to reread the 9th comment (Romans 2:1-3) AND substitute the word “liar” for “homosexual” whenever they feel the need to pontificate on this subject. See if your comments still make sense and aren’t self condemning.
The REAL issue is that Christians have made NO progress on the topic of homosexuality. Look at the Big Picture. The fundamentalists/traditionalists would tell you that it is the worst sin and the way to interact with homosexuals is to condemn, berate, and marginalize them. The post-moderns would tell you Jesus would never have treated homosexuals this way and that it isn’t a sin at all. Yet, we ALL know neither of these responses is completely accurate. What is the right answer?
Obviously the answer requires us to go much deeper. Have you read the post that precedes yours? Dave’s post was vulnerable, self aware, and compelling. It took a lot of courage to share his private thoughts and it left me changed. How can what he experienced be something that meets with Jesus’ approval? Don’t we want to determine the right answer or at the very least get past our current superficial perspectives?
It would take 2000 words to give an answer that takes us deeper, past the current tired rhetoric. In fact, I could ask you your definition of “homosexual” and get you to change your definition at least twice after asking a few questions. How can we have an opinion about something when we don’t know what we are talking about? However, Christians have this SAME problem with ALL of the major topics on THEOOZE. Don’t we want to take ALL of these topics deeper? Or do we want to be like all the generations that preceded us and continue to spout superficial explanations? Are we really helping people?
On Monday, July 24th, I have another article posting in the culture section. I believe this article will explain the reason why we haven’t taken ANY of these discussions deeper AND give the solution for how to do it in the future.
After you have read that article, perhaps you will be able to tell me the more correct answer to this and other issues.
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 07/19/2006 8:11 PMi find it very interesting that the comments that were the most offended by the subject of the article DID NOT address either Dan or Dave. It does not sound to me that they are part of a huge homosexual-machine that is trying to convert everyone over to their agenda, which was the main argument of a couple of the comentators. They both sound as if they are/were struggling with how to be christian and gay or how to be with christians and gay. Honestly, I would rather sit down and talk with you, Dan and Dave, than with someone who is defending an arbitrary argument. What is the point of having a conviction to love the sinner and hate the sin if you don't even address the sinner? JG, thank you for the article. Dan and Dave, God bless you and keep you. Posted by brett | Posted at 07/29/2006 11:57 AM
It's interesting to me that this turned into a sexual morality discussion rather than a discussion about the point of the article - is God punishing America.
This postmodernism is new for me - intriguing; smacking so true on one hand and offensive on the other. What have I found offensive? For one, I'm a conservative politically. That seems to be a dirty thing to post modern thinkers and writers. The stereotypes I've read in postmodern writing would lead me to bash conservatives too if what I have read actaully describes what I understand conservatism to be (and it's not Pat Robertson - that said, I also resist judging anyone who happens to like Pat) Secondly, there seems to be a "hate America first" thread that runs through post modern spirituality. Im not American. I'm a Canadian who gratefully lives stateside. Why is it we must through everything that's good about this nation out with the bathwater of what liberalism seems to hate about the U.S?
Is there room in the tent for people like me in your post modern theology/spirituality? It really is frustrating, and frankly painful. There's so much here that is beautiful - that rings true in my spirit, and then there's this other part that seems to be all about gving liberalism and spiritual/righteous arm. Is that what this is really about - spiritualizing politics? If there isn't a way for consevatives and liberals to live out the love of God tangibly then isn't postmodernism just another label for something that still doesn't cut it?
Thanks much.
Hungry, yet hesitant, Cyn
Posted by Cnthia | Posted at 08/03/2006 3:49 PMDear Lenhart,
Grace- "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life"
I do not find it a stretch believing the Jesus Christ influence and its reflection in my life can translate into "Unmerited Favor" Hence, the life I live is not even my own but the "Life" of Christ within me.
It is all about the "Miraculous Life" within and nothing about me.
"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;..............." Gal. 2:19-20.
You stated:
"Christianity is simply two things: 1)Do what God is telling you to do (grace) and 2)Confess and repent when you don't act in grace."
Those two requirements of "Christianity" seem to me to be mere standards/laws..... other than the Standard/Law of Jesus Christ.
Grace to you,
Tripp
Posted by Tripp | Posted at 08/13/2006 7:29 AMTripp,
Certainly the first half of Charis ("the divine influence on the heart") is an example of unmerited favor. However, grace doesn't end there.
There is a BIG difference between a LAW and a PRINCIPLE. A LAW states what not to do and results in a penalty. A PRINCIPLE states what to DO and results in a benefit.
PRINCIPLES also encourage uniqueness. LAWS try to make everyone the same. Those two PRINCIPLES I list are the PRINCIPLES of what all we need to do in our day to day lives in order to follow Jesus.
Jesus DIDN'T speak in terms of LAWS...he spoke in PRINCIPLES.
More to the point, the definition I shared is on the bottom rung of the ladder of abstraction. (Check out Bessie the Cow on my website for a more indepth explanation.) We need to define our terms specifically, or we are not going to understand each other and make progress.
For instance, what specifically is the "Standard/Law of Jesus Christ" according to you? You love to use the term "life" in your post. What is your definition of "life"?
What is eternal life? If it means we exist forever, doesn't the Bible say people in hell exist forever?
All of this stuff is fun to talk about in the abstract, but we are supposed to be able to understand the real (specific) definitions of the words we use to explain our beliefs: grace, truth, life, love, etc. We all say we are for these concepts, yet we don't agree on what they are...
What do you mean?
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 08/13/2006 12:50 PMJG,
Jesus Christ did not just come to show us the way; He is the way. He did not just teach us some truth: He is the truth. He did not just leave us a manual to live by. He is our life. Whatever the need of the human heart, Christ offers Himself as the solution. His eternal answer is "I am".
Rather than digging out of the Bible principles that we apply like a technician to repair our own lives, we are to go to the Word of God to get to know the Person of Jesus Christ, the living Word!
Col 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our/your life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Someone once said: "The Christian life can only be explained in terms of Jesus Christ, and if your life as a Christian can still be explained in terms of you your personality, your willpower, your gift, your talent, your money, your courage, your scholarship, your dedication, your sacrifice, or your anything then although you may have the Christian life, you are not yet living it!"
Live "Life" Tripp
Posted by Tripp Campbell | Posted at 08/14/2006 8:22 AMTripp,
I agree with the last paragraph. The question is "What specifically is life?" If you can't define it specficially, then how can you tell someone they are wrong when they define it differently than you.
As for the technician comment...everyone who says that is actually a technician themselves. Everyone has a model for God, Salvation, Jesus, etc. Your model for life as you've stated is the last paragraph.
Why not be a better technician and give an answer that opens doors to greater understanding and causes people to let the Holy Spirit direct their life more and cause them to read their Bible more?
CS Lewis said life was the ability to repair.
You are alive because your cells spend ALL THEIR TIME repairing…that is “life”.
Look at the implications of this definition:
Jesus didn’t come so we would be happy and never have problems. He came so we would have the ability to repair our problems and be able to do that abundantly.
This perspective gives a much deeper and clearer explanation of the scriptures…
When the Bible talks about “these words ARE life”…the words have the ability to repair.
The Old Testament says the life is in the blood…the ability to repair is in the blood. So the ultimate ability to repair would be in the ultimate blood…which is Jesus’. Jesus is the ultimate ability to repair: mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc. It ALL comes from him.
Eternal life means we will have the ability to repair for eternity…people in hell won’t be able to repair, they will continue to be destroyed.
People judge their (and other’s) existence and marriage by the lack of problems. Actually, the sign of a great life and marriage is the ability to repair the problems.
Tripp, you are obviously an intelligent person who has a passion for Jesus. All I'm trying to do is help people grow deeper in their relationship with the Holy Spirit so they can help others.
Please feel free to contact me via e-mail because I would love to continue this conversation in private.
Posted by JG Lenhart | Posted at 08/14/2006 9:59 AMJG,
"Life" is Jesus Christ...................Nothing more!!!
What if God defines a little differently than we do?
Possibly our definitions are more about fleshy perspectives/illusions than finished realities.
I know we differ in idealogy....I am not looking for a debate.
Just maybe a cerebral approach to our questions isn't necessarily the only solution and/or answer.
JG, thanks for listening and I look forward to ongoing discussions in the future.
Tripp
Posted by Tripp Campbell | Posted at 08/15/2006 8:26 AM