Bell: "I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that."
Two thoughts: I still don't know if Bell believes in a literal hell or not. Second, belief in a literal hell stems from Jesus' teaching (cf. Matthew 25). It does not mean that those who believe in a literal hell want people to go there.
I believe in literal hell. And, frankly, it tears me up to think people will go there. It does God too.
Bell is sooooooo evasive. Yeesh.
I wish I would have had more time to explore this issue further with Rob, however I had already exceeded my interview time with him. I want to say that the emotion of what he was saying, which may not come through in a manuscript was that many Christians get so hung up with the doctrinal issues and miss the heart of evangelism which is to love those people who don't know Jesus and do everything possible to keep them from being separated from Him. If we had as much zeal for people as we do doctrine sometimes, it would overshadow the need to hammer those issues so hard. Maybe it was more like "yeah I believe in hell but let's focus on loving people and showing them Jesus, rather than telling them where they are going to go." Also, during the session earlier that day at the conference (Isn't she beautiful), Rob did specifically say "of course I believe in a literal hell".
vic
That’s cool…not that there is a literal hell but that Rob Bell cleared it up. I enjoyed reading your interview.
You know, I’ve listened to several of Bell’s messages, read some of his stuff, and watched some of his Nooma Videos. His teachings are clearly based on objective truth. But, I can see how he is often misunderstood…as was the case in my read of his answer to your question about hell.
It also bothers me to no end that we preacher-types in all of our passion so frequently paint others with a broad brush. By inferring that those of us who would argue for a literal hell from a doctrinal perspective are cheering for people to go there is unfair. It’s kind of like PETA activists who think everyone who eats hamburgers are in favor of cruel treatment of animals. It is my literal belief in Hell that compels me to pray (and beg) that my grandpa be saved.
Wow... I don't even know where to begin with this stream of nonsense. I thought pastors were supposed to give clear answers, not mush. Actually mush is probably too generous of a description. Seriously, this entire interview was one long ramble. I had no idea what Mr. Bell was trying to say most of the time. Did Mr. Bell even have an idea?
"I would wager that the things that most turn them off are the things that most turn Jesus off. There is not one instance in Jesus’ teachings where he gets angry with somebody who isn’t a follower of his or someone who doesn’t love God. His anger is always for religious people who claim to speak for God but live in another way. So if you find hypocrisy absolutely revolting so did Jesus. If you find people who think they are the moral police of culture repulsive, so did Jesus. If you find people who are ready to throw stones at the next sinner very hard to take, so did Jesus. And if you think that people who use Jesus to accumulate political power, to coerce people to live according to their laws, well Jesus had a problem with such things as well. I would say that your anger is shared by Jesus. He’s angered by all the same things."
Can we say, "caricature"? Seriously, what Christian acts like this? Who wants to use Jesus to accumulate political power? Who's talking about using legislation to make people more moral? Nobody of course. Mr. Bell, are you trying to pull a fast one on us, or are you that deceived yourself? On a side note, Jesus actually did get angry at his followers at times. Does "Get thee behind me Satan!" ring a bell?
"My assumption is always that a Christian is not hanging out in some sort of anemic little subculture with C-grade art and music. They are in the middle of everything exchanging ideas and they are humble and smart about it. They aren’t just out offending people telling them that they are wrong but they actually love people enough to engage them where they are at."
Here's that caricature thing again. And of course, we can't have Christians telling people that they might actually be wrong. That's just unloving.
"That’s wrong and we think that *pisses* Jesus off, that people don’t have water, so we are trying to do something about that." (Emphasis mine)
Nice... way to be vulgar man. Can't you picture Jesus talking just like that?
"For instance a lot of Christians have really warped views about people from other religions. They don’t even know how to interact. They can’t even be human with someone who isn’t exactly like them. That’s a humanity issue and God calls us to respect the image of God in all of God’s image bearers. So we need to challenge the theology that wants to label all the world into these nice neat boxes and that wants to condemn these people because we’re so great. We need to challenge something because it gets in the way of the very thing Jesus calls us to be. Love your neighbor."
Oh look... another caricature. I'm beginning to notice a theme. What is he even talking about? Who wants to condemn people because they think they're so great? God condemns people, not us. And what's this labeling business? Label people as what? Saved or unsaved? Regenerate or unregenerate? Fat or skinny? Mr. Bell, what are you talking about!? This guy makes my head hurt.
"If you can’t even conceive of your neighbor outside of this giant label, if you have never read their sacred texts and you can make these grand statements about their eternal destiny then how are you ever going to love your neighbor? You have no voice with them and Jesus called you to have a voice with them. So I am going to challenge that because I am trying to be obedient to Jesus [sic]"
So now we can't even make statements about people's eternal destiny? Wait, what verse is that again? Oh... let me guess, "Judge not lest ye be judged." How imbecilic of me to miss that one. Of course, I see it now. Warning people about the eternal and horrible reality of hell, and how they're going to go there unless they repent and trust in the Saviour is *very* unloving. We wouldn't want to do that, now would we? Furthermore, why would I need to read people's ancient spiritual texts? They are brimming with lies straight from Satan's blaspheming mouth. What can they possibly offer?
"Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?"
What? I assume there's an answer to the question about literal hell in here somewhere. I'm guessing... yes, it does exist? Well, that's good. Yay! Finally.
"I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that."
Oh, what do you know, *another* caricature. Anybody who preaches or argues a literal hell actually wants people to end up there. I'd comment on the last part of the paragraph, but I don't think I can. Does Mr. Bell practice being unintelligible or does it just come naturally to him?
"Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God. If you are really serious about evangelism, as I’m sure you friend would claim, and you wanted to save people from hell, then wouldn’t your hope be that everybody reconciles with God? Why would you hope for anything else? It would be your duty to long for that. I would actually ask questions about his salvation."
Mr. Bell, please *stop* with the strawmen. It's getting old. NOBODY WANTS PEOPLE TO END UP IN HELL. WE AGREE WITH YOU. Why would you ask questions about this guy's salvation though? Isn't that unloving and judgmental?
I think I finally have enough information to put together how Mr. Bell views Christians who talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. Let's see... we're unloving, cruel, power-mongering, and have warped views about people from other religions. We're also so arrogant and so self-righteous that anybody not like us deserves to go to hell. In fact, we want them there. They deserve it and we don't. Mwhahahaa!
Okay, all the sarcasm aside (I know it was alot) for now. I didn't write all this to be mean, but because believers should be made aware of people like Rob Bell. He is at best aberant in his theology and at worst heretical. I believe he is dangerous and is leading many people astray. Jesus said that we will know false prophets and teachers by their fruit. I'm not sure at this point if Rob Bell is one of these, but I'm starting to be concerned. To be safe, we should distance ourselves from him until he either repents or at least clarifies his teachings.
Hmm, Sounds like the "concened Christians" has some issues of his own.
"Can we say, "caricature"? Seriously, what Christian acts like this? Who wants to use Jesus to accumulate political power? Who's talking about using legislation to make people more moral? Nobody of course. Mr. Bell, are you trying to pull a fast one on us, or are you that deceived yourself? On a side note, Jesus actually did get angry at his followers at times. Does "Get thee behind me Satan!" ring a bell?"
First of all are you living in a non existent Christian utopia where you think the Church is all that Jesus desires it to be. Don't you realize that the majority of the people who don't know Jesus, do not have a high view of the Christians or the Church. What you call "mush" are some of the very things that will help us engage and reach this world that for the most part has no use for the Church or agenda driven Christians.
Also it appears that you aren't even paying attention to what you are reading you are just looking to vent. For instance - "On a side note, Jesus actually did get angry at his followers at times. Does "Get thee behind me Satan!" ring a bell?" That is exactly what Rob said. The only time you see Jesus getting angry with people are with those who are his followers. "There is not one instance in Jesus’ teachings where he gets angry with somebody who isn’t a follower of his or someone who doesn’t love God".
And just for the record, I'm not sure if you could make a more ignorant statement than "I think I finally have enough information to put together how Mr. Bell views Christians who talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. Let's see... we're unloving, cruel, power-mongering, and have warped views about people from other religions." If you took time to ever listen to Rob's teaching you would realize that he is a Christian who talks about all the things you just mentioned.
In reality, maybe you have enough information to know how many people who don't follow Jesus really view agenda driven, unloving, judgmental Christians. And yes along with Mr. Bell there are many of us who agree that people like this are not just strawmen but they actually do exist and sometimes make uneducated comments about others who are simply encouraging us to take the plank out of our own eye before trying to remove the speck from another (I believe you can find chapter and verse for that).
I could go on but I am tired.
"For instance a lot of Christians have really warped views about people from other religions." Like what?
"God calls us to respect the image of God in all of God’s image bearers." Doesn't scripture teach that those who are not of Christ are not God's children?
"So we need to challenge the theology that wants to label all the world into these nice neat boxes and that wants to condemn these people" Didn't Jesus say that there are only 2 boxes. Those who were FOR Him and those who were AGAINST Him? And didn't He also say that the entire world is condemned? Wouldn't telling people that they are already condemned be the Christian thing to do? Right? Don't we have to let people know which box they are in? Saved or un-saved?
"We need to challenge something because it gets in the way of the very thing Jesus calls us to be. Love your neighbor. If you can’t even conceive of your neighbor outside of this giant label...," Wouldn't telling our neighbor that they will end up in hell if they step out of this world without denying their current religion and putting on Christ, be the loving thing to do?
"if you have never read their sacred texts and you can make these grand statements about their eternal destiny then how are you ever going to love your neighbor?" Do we really need to read their texts to know that they are on their way to hell? And again, wouldn't warning them about the fact that they are on their way to hell be the loving thing to do? If someone was about to step in front of a bus, I think the loving thing to do would be to warn them about it.
"You have no voice with them and Jesus called you to have a voice with them. So I am going to challenge that because I am trying to be obedient to Jesus" Did Jesus really say that we should have a voice with them? I remember Jesus saying "if the world listens to you it is because you are of the world." and "if the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." and "blessed are you if the world hates you." and "He that is of God hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God." Doesn't this teach us that we shouldn't have a voice with the world, and that if we do then we're not speaking from God? Shouldn't we be rejected and hated for the things that we say to the world?
Vic? any answers to these questions?
If you insist...
"God calls us to respect the image of God in all of God’s image bearers." Doesn't scripture teach that those who are not of Christ are not God's children?
Yes Scripture teaches this but there is a difference between being a Christian and being created in the image of God. All people are created in the image of God, therefore there should be a respect and love for all people...
"So we need to challenge the theology that wants to label all the world into these nice neat boxes and that wants to condemn these people" Didn't Jesus say that there are only 2 boxes. Those who were FOR Him and those who were AGAINST Him? And didn't He also say that the entire world is condemned? Wouldn't telling people that they are already condemned be the Christian thing to do? Right? Don't we have to let people know which box they are in? Saved or un-saved?
Didn't Jesus say that he did not come to condemn the world? Why, because they are already condemned. The point is not that we don't talk to people about judgment but rather how we do this. In every instance that Jesus confronted the non religious "sinners" it was always in a loving relevant, relational way. Yes He clearly drew lines in the sand but in a way that was attractive and not offensive. With the exception of course being to the religious elite who just loved being above the "sinners". He was quite offensive to some people like us (Christians) who thought they were better than others and didn't recognize the mercy and grace that had been extended to them.
"if you have never read their sacred texts and you can make these grand statements about their eternal destiny then how are you ever going to love your neighbor?" Do we really need to read their texts to know that they are on their way to hell? And again, wouldn't warning them about the fact that they are on their way to hell be the loving thing to do? If someone was about to step in front of a bus, I think the loving thing to do would be to warn them about it.
It would help if you knew something about what they believed before you told them how wrong they were. However I guess you can get most of that from a Chick tract or wherever. Why would your focus be so much on "warning them" as opposed to showing them the love that this there for them. What they are missing and what God offers to mankind through a relationship with Christ. That should be the focus. Of course yes you tell someone of the consequences of disbelief but how about the good news that we were called to proclaim to all nations?
Did Jesus really say that we should have a voice with them? I remember Jesus saying "if the world listens to you it is because you are of the world." and "if the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." and "blessed are you if the world hates you." and "He that is of God hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God." Doesn't this teach us that we shouldn't have a voice with the world, and that if we do then we're not speaking from God? Shouldn't we be rejected and hated for the things that we say to the world?
Jesus had a voice with them, all except the religious elite that is... Doesn't that Scripture say "if the world hates you because of me" the problem is most of the time it is not Jesus that many Christians are representing. Often we represent our doctrine, beliefs, dogmas you might say. So yes if you actually represent Christ well and the world rejects you, persecutes you, hates you, so be it. But don't use that as a cop out to be an unloving religious zealot like the Pharisees that killed our Lord.
hope you find this helpful vic
Hey Vic,
Just wanted to say I enjoyed the article, and I also enjoyed your responses to the others comments. I can't even begin tell you how surprised I am to see the exact people Rob Bell *caricatures* in his interview posting on this website.
Blindness.
gotta say i love this interview.
the part where he talks about people going to church because they should, whether it's mediocre or even bad --- that is so healing to me. we recently had a quiet and peaceful departure from a church, where there is some spiritual abuse and other bad stuff, and i felt so bad about it. it's that religious background i have, that says we should never have a bad opinion about the church, etc.
so this article, from a pastor, is quite healing to my soul.
Vic,
Thanks for responding to some of the criticisms posted above. My understanding of "The Ooze" is that its purpose is to provide a venue for a "conversation" between those of us who may or may not agree on the Po-Mo/EC movement.
It has been a hope of mine to engage believers within the Bell-ish camp (there's a label) for some time. Generally, I have found people on both sides to be impatient and angry.
But we have to remember this: How we engage one another--especially other believers who get our dander up--is a means by which exemplify Christ to the World.
My encouragement to you is stay cool. My ilk (classic evangelicalism) has been wrong at times in resorting to strawmen arguments, and mindless/childish name-calling.
Somewhere in the fray is the truth. God has hidden it. We have. Our emotions, our rationales, our finitude--each contribute to the fog. But perhaps the biggest fogmaker of all is pride.
So, thanks again bro, for doing the interview. Thanks for reporting on it. Thanks for taking the time to answer critics.
Finally, I think the criticism of Bell associating a "charicature" of us of the conservative evangelical persuasion is a legitimate one. Based exclusively on the above interview I felt pigeon-holed. I believe in a literal Hell. I have engaged in doctrinal debate in defense of that position. Bell's construct of an unloving Christian would consider me to be one of those guys he can't figure out.
Again, both sides are drawing a line in the sand, Bell included. He mentioned his unwillingness to listen to his critics in blogs, articles, and etc. That's unfortunate. He could be helped as we all are by hearing those who express concerns.
God Bless your ministry, Vic. Keep on keeping on.
"God has hidden it."
I meant to type "God has NOT hidden it. We have."
I didn't proofread my text close enough. Yeesh.
Vic, thanks. I know Rob, and while not a disciple of his, have no doubt whatsoever about his serious commitment to the kingdom of Godfollowing Jesus.
Scott - very kind words. I come from that conservative evangelical camp. Probably a little harder (fundamentalist). But here's the thing...you're asking Vic to be too nice. I don't see Paul being that nice to Peter when he coddles the Judaizers. I don't see Jesus being that nice to the Pharisees when they tithe but don't care for their folks. In other words...there is a defensive strain of Christianity (ever since the church at Jerusalem) that seeks to protect it's peculiar brand of spirituality ('instruct them to avoid meat sacrificed to idols') from the missional edge (Paul at Corinth) that is proclaiming liberty to captives.
Seriously...to call Bell a heretic is amazing. The apostle Paul addresses churches that own slaves, sleep with their step-moms and get drunk around the Lord's table with more humility.
I'm tired of nice. The wounds of a friend are to be trusted. I know it. Let the self-appointed protectors of correct theology know it, also.
please dont bring this latest batch of emergent mars religion to the uk, or europe,or anywhere else in the world for that matter thankyou ...keep it in america thanks. youve given us toronto(i know thats canada) brownsville, jakes,osteen,dollar,warren,engle,joiner,joels army,tv evangelists,tv prophets...make your mind up guys... read your bible pray everday as you follow Him great debate guys rod hull, lambretta man
I hope that none of us desire to bring anything to anyone other than the truth. And may we all learn to do that in love as has been demonstrated by our Savior.
Joey I agree with you, there is a time and a place for rebuke and correction and frankly I have no problem with that, especially when people represent God in a way that is out of character to what see exemplified in Christ. However I am careful to not let my emotions fuel my responses so that it produces arguements rather than a genuine pursuit of truth.
Rod, all we are trying to do is study the Scripture, understand it, apply it to our lives and live that out in a real authentic way. There is no agenda other than a God given command to "Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourselves". Jesus said this was the first and greatest commandment and a summation of all the Law.
Personally I am very conservative when it comes to doctrine. However, I think we can believe and live out historic, orthodox, Christianity without a pious, self righteous attitude that has turned off so many people over the years. Our goal should be to represent Christ to the world as His ambassadors, and to represent Him well.
Thanks for all the comments and the conversation.
Did Rob really say that his six year old listens to Jay-Z Unplugged? Have you read any of the lyrics of those songs? Not exactly in line with "Sex God" and certainly not able to print on this web site. Very vulgar and disturbed music. I hope somewhere there was a mistake!!!
He did actually say that. It may have been and probably was a joke but I honestly don't know...
Vic, Thanks...I will ask Rob myself and get back to you. Also, another web site posted a copy of this interveiw and a comment on that site assumed Mars Hill paid 13 million for the mall and owes 8 million and wants to add 4 million to it. Rob was not talking about Mars Hill when he made those comments. Mars Hill was given the mall for free and paid for the land which is paid off if full. Mars Hill has no debt and isn't planning on putting any addition on that I am aware of let a lone spend 4 million in debt for it. just to clarify ( I couldn't comment on the other web site so I thought I would mention it here. ) Thanks. MJH
MJH, Thanks for making that clear to readers. What is the other site that you saw the interview on? I am going to try to get that fixed. Those sentences should be in bold print since that was my commentary on my own situation at that time.
I love that Rob is willing to question things. I have been going to church since I was two weeks old, I grew up in a family with an incredible spiritual heritage, went to college to study for vocational ministry, and now am starting a church in Brew City and Rob brings up things that I have never heard of and they sound more correct than what I have heard for the past 29 years.
I don't agree with everything he says. (Yet) But I love that somtimes after he teaches I have to go back to the Bible and question how I have always read (and taught) certain passages.
I don't think as Teachers or Pastors we should give people all the answers. I think that mentality is why there is so much fear in the church today. We don't know why we believe anything. We just take our answers from the answer man and base our context of belief on what one guy who talks at me for 40 minutes a week says. That is so wrong. Most of the time when Jesus was done teaching his disciples, they didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He had to explain stuff to them all the time. But they did question him about what it meant. So for me as a teacher I would much rather have people walk away from my teaching with more questions than they walked in with. Then to seek the Holy Spirit and scripture to find an answer for themself. We have to teach people to be learners not just give them our opinion.
Hello, I saw Rob Bell in Philly last year. He was awesome. We show his Nooma videos in our worship service for a time of reflection to follow. What an awesome leader! I have to say that when I go to see Jesus, if I had 10000 followers who had somehow come through my ministry, because of my example of how to walk with Jesus, that I am sure God will be proud. Way to go Rob! I love him and I think he rocks! The only thing to talk about is how he offends your spirit! I wonder what lies beneath!
I can't believe you've all ignored the real heresy in all of this - he doesn't even listen to Christian music. I mean, come on... that's what the first century Jewish Culture was *really* into... the Newsboys and DC Talk.
Tony, that is awesome! Probably the best post thus far, I love it! P.S. Carmen Rocks ha ha ha
Rob Bell is one of the greatest Christian thinkers of our time. Thanks, Vic, for the awesome interview.
I had the opportunity to meet Rob Bell two weeks ago and encourage him to keep up his good work. If you don't understand what Rob is saying then keep trying to learn and understand. It will eventually save you from the path toward a literal hell on which you are traveling today.
Vic, I heard back about the JayZ album Rob's son listens to. He said it was the edited version of the CD. (Via the church's email.) Unfortunately that version isn't any better. Removing the swear words doesn't remove the attitude toward multiple women.
Any way, I said I would get back, so I did.
The other web site with your interview is: planetpreterist.com/news-5326.html
I hope that helps. MJH
Vic,
First I love the interview. Very insightful. I had the opportunity to sit and chat with Rob for an hour or so at a NOOMA shoot here in Jacksonville, FL (the new “TODAY” NOOMA). No doubt in my mind that Rob is genuine in his pursuit to follow Jesus. What saddens me the most is to read the string of post/comments to your article of those who would rather spend precious time creating more diversity and distraction rather than respecting someone on the same team as they are on. Rob’s style is unique but he is reaching people in ways many of us just can’t. God gifted Rob to a certain calling and perhaps that calling differs from mine, from yours or anyone else who posted a comment on this blog. To me that’s okay and not something others should trash but rather embrace. Sometimes I think our need for control gets us so wrapped up in the details that we can easily miss the goal. Rob and Mars Hill are doing amazing things for those who are hurting in Grand Rapids and all over the world. I’ve watched men and women who were seeking God break down in tears while watching a NOOMA because it spoke to their issue and to their soul. That to me is God using Rob to open a door into someone’s heart that will then help them enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ.
If we could get out of our own way, and God’s way, and present a more unified front rather than constantly nitpicking at each other then seekers might see our unity and love rather than our division and need for control.
Before I begin my comment Id like to say that Ive always been an avid fan of Rob Bell. I believe his works and thinking are constantly refreshing, and the way he has put things in the past really meet me where I am.
"Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?"
This seems void of human will. Ultimately I dont think one can compare the two. If human will is never stronger than God's grace and love, then it really isnt human will at all. If in every case God's grace and love redeem, even in the cases where there is no desire for such a redemption, then the fundamental belief in our will seems void. I am reminded of Lee Strobel in a Case for Faith, who in one of his interviews comes to the belief that second chances seem out of the question. And that even if given a second chance, that person would still choose hell because if it was a capability of that person to choose heaven at some point, God would have never ended their life before they were ready to make that switch. Thus affirming the belief that no one "dies unjustly before they are allowed to choose God's grace and love".
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.
It's really not like we've cooked these theories up. Jesus did. Of course this friend wouldnt want a literal hell, no one does! And to argue for a literal hell is not to be on "that side". I am with CS Lewis who states that the idea of hell is morally correct. To not have it would void our free will. I think hell is an extremely important biblical and Christian doctrine that Rob Bell is brushing aside.
Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God. If you are really serious about evangelism, as I’m sure you friend would claim, and you wanted to save people from hell, then wouldn’t your hope be that everybody reconciles with God? Why would you hope for anything else? It would be your duty to long for that. I would actually ask questions about his salvation.
I fully agree that should be our hope, but there is simply no evidence of such an event. Every new testament parable and inference suggests that not everyone will be in heaven, no matter how much we hope for this to be different, not accepting the reality of it as a Christian seems a bit naive and childish. There are simply people who want nothing to do with the Lord, who will never buy into what hes offering, and despite every inclination from an all powerful and all knowing God, will refuse what he has to offer. To believe in a reconciliation of such a person that even God knows will forever refuse to be redeemed, seems to undermine some of the core Christian doctrines.
Vic
Hi I'm Phil, a lay leader of an inner city church in Liverpool UK. We are currently enjoying our year as European Capital of Culture 2008!
Sorry to have taken such a time to repsond, but I have only discovered the brilliant Ooze blog last week and am making up for lost time.
Who are some of these people on this blog? I say that because Rob's greatest detractors go under the names of "Concerned Christian" or "Dogma" (no forenames supplied )- the comment "we don't have to read their sacred texts to know they are going to hell" - smacks to me of someone who is quite pleased that adherents of other religions are hellbound...what is this fixation with hell all about anyway....Yes Jesus did mention hell on several occasions but nowhere near the number of times he taught about the Kingdom of God! Yesterday, I was on a training course, and by far the highlight of the day, was the time I spent in discussion with the young man sitting next to me, a 26 year old, originally from a rural area of Afghanistan, who left his country and his family as a 19 year old to flee from the Taleban who had taken contol of the region where he lived. He was a moderate Muslim, who had arrived here in the UK knowing virtually nobody, had built up a successful pizza business and was considering retrainign as a doctor, which is what he was thinking of doing when he fled his home country.
We are talking here of a living breathing human being who has suffered far more in his short life than I am sure that "Concerned Christian" or "Dogma" probably have in the USA. What is more important, that we tell this guy straight off that he is on his way to hell or that we listen to his story, allow our heart to ache with compassion for him, and admire his courage, his bravery and his determination.
Reflecting on this a disturbing thought struck me. I would long for this guy to come to know Christ, but my fear would be that having feld from the Muslim Taleban, he could find himself in the clutches of the Christian version of the Taleban (trust me...they do exist!!) Seriously, there are several Christians of my own acquaintance who, it appears to me, have an almost Taleban approach to their fellow Christians. If it is not done on their terms, in their way,a ccording to their rules, it is automatically unsound and unacceptable. There are people who love nothing better to sit in judgement on all that goes on as if they were are God's chosen arbiters of all that is acceptable! No they are not!!! They have never been appointed to such a role - they are merely self appointed to it!!! It really brasses me off!
What really worries me is when I find people ouside the church whose company I love and cherish and who I could happily spend hours with, and then realise that there are fellow Christians with whom spending ten minutes in their company is eight or nine minutes too many! I am sure that they feel the same way about me, incidentally!! What then really worries me is that I am contracted and committed to sending eternity with them...I am just hoping that our Father's many mansions will give me plenty of opportunity to explore and escape!
The previous message to this one was posted on NewYear's Day. It is now just after Easter and in between Christmas and Easter I have had the privilige, for that is what it was, of reading "Velvet Elvis" - I really do not know where these accusations of Rob Bell being evasive stem from? Some of the statements he makes in the book are devastatingly clear (which is what many don't like!) and some of the questions he poses and the amazing phraseology he uses to pose them is deeply thought provoking and disturbing, just as it should be! This man is not to be worshipped and adored (I find it ironic that much of the criticism of the "adulation" of Rob Bell comes from the very wing of the church who have made "exaltation of the pastor" almost into an artform). However, I believe that he is to be listened to attentively, respected, and his ministry is to be recognised and deeply valued because it has to be said , the likes of Concerned Christaina and Dogma do not have a snowball's chance in engaging, connecting or loving the people that Rob is able to reach through his ministry. My suspicion is that the kind of people who congregate in their thousands at Mars Hill are not the sort of people some people want to see in the Kingdom. Why can't we all just rejoice that these people are being reached and influenced for Christ...or is that just too much to ask or expect?
Finally, I have a long standing Christian friend, with a deep passion for punk music in his earlier years, one of the brightest, intelligent and naturally funny people I have ever had the priviligre of knowing. In all the years I have known him, I have longed for a book to loan to him which will explain to him the love of God to be found in Jesus, which treats him as an intelligent equal, which does not talk down to him in patronising or condescending terms. Until recently, despite the plethora of books around, there was not one I felt I could give him with any real confidence. Can I just say, thank you Rob Bell. I shall bide my time but hopefully will have an opportunity at some point to pass him a copy of Velvet Elvis.
Can I just finish Vic, Rob etc by saying this, For many years now, we in the UK have had a pretty negative sterotype of the average American Christian fed too us by the media over here...The comments of Concerned Christian and Dogma do not help, I am afraid. Never has the image of American Christianity been poorer or more negative in the UK than it has been here recently. In visiting theooze and other American Emerging Church websites, please can I say a massive thank you for all that you are doing to redress the balance and present a far more positive and life affirming image. You guys and girls are getting loads of flak, but just press on and continue to equip people for the immense challenges that lie ahead as we seek to enable people to impact their culture with the love of Christ in ways whcih are relevant and influential. Also be encouraged that the Emerging Church movement is gaining momentum and beginning to take large strides on this side of the Atlantic too.
Take good care - and Concerned Christian and Dogma, if you are deeply offended by some of my comments, which I guess you mightl be, you are only feeling the same as some of your fellow brothers and sisters are when they read some of the comments that come their way.
Take good care everone
Phil
I think part of the problem with this "debate" about Rob Bell is that somehow there is a feeling of "either this or that". Rob tends to be ALL about being the hands and feet of Jesus. ALL about loving others and doing good (providing fresh water, etc). These are VERY important things, admirable, and right on with what Christ displayed to us.
However, if this is what he thinks being a Christian is ALL about, he's just as bad as the typical "church" he condemns. While a lot of churches and Christians get too caught up in "doctrine" or who's saved or not saved, and often just forget to love people and actually "work out their salvation", it is just as dangerous, and probably more so, to only be "good" people, with no doctrine or TRUTH.
To me, if you follow down Rob's path WITHOUT also having a very solid theological and doctrinal foundation, you would very likely end up being no different than Oprah and Dr. Phil and other people who genuinely care for society and helping people. The only difference would be that it's done under the banner of Jesus. Don't get me wrong, being under the banner of Jesus is all the reason there is to do good and help others.
BUT, we can't forget that among doing good and loving others and accepting others, there is TRUTH to consider. In the end, there is "saved" and "unsaved", there is Heaven and there is Hell. We can love people and help them all day, but if we love them all day in the name of Jesus but never tell them who Jesus is, then what's the point?
Isn't Jesus our Saviour? What did He come to save us from? Polluted water? Starvation? No, the only reason the "Word became flesh" was to reconcile us to Him. He came to live, but ultimately to die, and live again.
If we know an agnostic, or a Mormon, and we love them, and we fellowship with them, and we accept them, and we don't judge them, but then can't discuss TRUTH and doctrine, and salvation (which naturally implies being "saved" from something), then what has all of our "goodness" done for their souls? In the end, isn't Jesus more concerned with their soul than with providing clean water to them? I'm not implying that it's what Rob thinks, but you can't just do all the good works to put yourself in position to share Christ, and then not be prepared to defend the faith.
Remember where I started the post. BOTH things are important. We should be the hands and feet of Christ, helping those in need. It gives us a platform and credibility to then be able to share with them. BUT, once the time is at hand, and the conversation goes that way, and we share, it is of the utmost importance to be able to share solid, Biblical TRUTH with them.
53 minutes into our conversation with them about "God", if they ask about Hell, it is no time to skate around it for fear of "offending" them, or for fear of ruffling feathers, or for fear of "judging" them. It is our obligation to speak the TRUTH that the Lord has provided us in His word. When it comes to that, it is not our idea, not what's "true for me". It is THE TRUTH, that His Word gives. Not our opinion, His. We are not the judge, He is, but He is a Just God, also full of grace.
Hell is absolutely essential to explaining God's Grace and justification. Sure, it doesn't have to be your leading headline, but you can't just say "oh that's the problem with the church, always wanting to argue for the existence of Hell". You can not watch the news, but that doesn't change the fact that someone was murdered that day. And just because someone says, "three people were shot in a drive-by shooting yesterday", the doesn't mean that I am glad there was a shooting, or that it's "the side I'm on".
In fact, I don't think I would ever argue so strongly for the fact that Hell exsists, unless it was with the pastor of a church acting like it may or may not be true and that it's just not really important anyway. That's where you'll find me arguing about it. If a Muslim wanted to argue with me about what Hell or Heaven is really like, I would probably be a little vague and focus on more important things in Bible and who Jesus was or wasn't, that would be a more appropriate or "core" issue to have a dialog about. But the pastor of a Christian church? Sure, that warrants a lively debate about the existence of Hell.
The mainstream church has to get away from a bubble-Christianity, be willing to get dirty and be the hands and feet. But in this post-modern era of relativism, we cannot abandon TRUTH and scripture and doctrine. We have to be both to the world. We have to give them literal water, but we have to share with the idea of drinking from Him, as he told the woman at the well. And in that discussion comes the WHOLE scripture, the WHOLE truth, Hell and everything.
It's interesting to me that Rob mentions Christians living in "fear". It seems so clear to me that he is willing to be the hands and feet of Christ and do good. But isn't that the "safe" part of being a Christian. If you just come in and help people, what do you have to fear? What's harder to do, and what would naturally bring more fear, would be to do those things AND be bold in Biblical truth. Call a spade a spade, Hell is what it is. The fearful thing to do is to avoid the topic, be vague and give an answer that would be comfortable on Larry King.
We need leaders that break from the mold of the "bubble church" But we don't need them to leave doctrine behind at the expense of Biblical truth.
I think Rob Bell is right on with his answer in this interview. I have personally met many Christians who go about vehemently arguing about hell, demons, what brings people to hell (as they claim to know it) and that is where their passion ends. If these people were to focus more on the things Jesus was passionate about maybe more would get done. Besides, Jesus performed miracles for a reason; help the sick, shield the weak, and repair the broken. Maybe it would be best if we made like Jesus and got out there to help instead of talking, condemning, and pointing our fingers. I guess this shows that it is easier to post on a website to criticize a man about his beliefs on hell than to get out and live like Jesus did. Maybe if we all were to live a little more like Jesus did Hell wouldn't even matter. That was his point. 1 John 4:16-19
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Bell: "I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that."
Two thoughts: I still don't know if Bell believes in a literal hell or not. Second, belief in a literal hell stems from Jesus' teaching (cf. Matthew 25). It does not mean that those who believe in a literal hell want people to go there.
I believe in literal hell. And, frankly, it tears me up to think people will go there. It does God too.
Bell is sooooooo evasive. Yeesh.
Posted by Scott | Posted at 07/03/2007 10:02 AMI wish I would have had more time to explore this issue further with Rob, however I had already exceeded my interview time with him. I want to say that the emotion of what he was saying, which may not come through in a manuscript was that many Christians get so hung up with the doctrinal issues and miss the heart of evangelism which is to love those people who don't know Jesus and do everything possible to keep them from being separated from Him. If we had as much zeal for people as we do doctrine sometimes, it would overshadow the need to hammer those issues so hard. Maybe it was more like "yeah I believe in hell but let's focus on loving people and showing them Jesus, rather than telling them where they are going to go." Also, during the session earlier that day at the conference (Isn't she beautiful), Rob did specifically say "of course I believe in a literal hell".
vic
Posted by vic | Posted at 07/03/2007 11:31 AMThat’s cool…not that there is a literal hell but that Rob Bell cleared it up. I enjoyed reading your interview.
You know, I’ve listened to several of Bell’s messages, read some of his stuff, and watched some of his Nooma Videos. His teachings are clearly based on objective truth. But, I can see how he is often misunderstood…as was the case in my read of his answer to your question about hell.
It also bothers me to no end that we preacher-types in all of our passion so frequently paint others with a broad brush. By inferring that those of us who would argue for a literal hell from a doctrinal perspective are cheering for people to go there is unfair. It’s kind of like PETA activists who think everyone who eats hamburgers are in favor of cruel treatment of animals. It is my literal belief in Hell that compels me to pray (and beg) that my grandpa be saved.
Posted by Scott | Posted at 07/03/2007 11:48 AMWow... I don't even know where to begin with this stream of nonsense. I thought pastors were supposed to give clear answers, not mush. Actually mush is probably too generous of a description. Seriously, this entire interview was one long ramble. I had no idea what Mr. Bell was trying to say most of the time. Did Mr. Bell even have an idea?
"I would wager that the things that most turn them off are the things that most turn Jesus off. There is not one instance in Jesus’ teachings where he gets angry with somebody who isn’t a follower of his or someone who doesn’t love God. His anger is always for religious people who claim to speak for God but live in another way. So if you find hypocrisy absolutely revolting so did Jesus. If you find people who think they are the moral police of culture repulsive, so did Jesus. If you find people who are ready to throw stones at the next sinner very hard to take, so did Jesus. And if you think that people who use Jesus to accumulate political power, to coerce people to live according to their laws, well Jesus had a problem with such things as well. I would say that your anger is shared by Jesus. He’s angered by all the same things."
Can we say, "caricature"? Seriously, what Christian acts like this? Who wants to use Jesus to accumulate political power? Who's talking about using legislation to make people more moral? Nobody of course. Mr. Bell, are you trying to pull a fast one on us, or are you that deceived yourself? On a side note, Jesus actually did get angry at his followers at times. Does "Get thee behind me Satan!" ring a bell?
"My assumption is always that a Christian is not hanging out in some sort of anemic little subculture with C-grade art and music. They are in the middle of everything exchanging ideas and they are humble and smart about it. They aren’t just out offending people telling them that they are wrong but they actually love people enough to engage them where they are at."
Here's that caricature thing again. And of course, we can't have Christians telling people that they might actually be wrong. That's just unloving.
"That’s wrong and we think that *pisses* Jesus off, that people don’t have water, so we are trying to do something about that." (Emphasis mine)
Nice... way to be vulgar man. Can't you picture Jesus talking just like that?
"For instance a lot of Christians have really warped views about people from other religions. They don’t even know how to interact. They can’t even be human with someone who isn’t exactly like them. That’s a humanity issue and God calls us to respect the image of God in all of God’s image bearers. So we need to challenge the theology that wants to label all the world into these nice neat boxes and that wants to condemn these people because we’re so great. We need to challenge something because it gets in the way of the very thing Jesus calls us to be. Love your neighbor."
Oh look... another caricature. I'm beginning to notice a theme. What is he even talking about? Who wants to condemn people because they think they're so great? God condemns people, not us. And what's this labeling business? Label people as what? Saved or unsaved? Regenerate or unregenerate? Fat or skinny? Mr. Bell, what are you talking about!? This guy makes my head hurt.
"If you can’t even conceive of your neighbor outside of this giant label, if you have never read their sacred texts and you can make these grand statements about their eternal destiny then how are you ever going to love your neighbor? You have no voice with them and Jesus called you to have a voice with them. So I am going to challenge that because I am trying to be obedient to Jesus [sic]"
So now we can't even make statements about people's eternal destiny? Wait, what verse is that again? Oh... let me guess, "Judge not lest ye be judged." How imbecilic of me to miss that one. Of course, I see it now. Warning people about the eternal and horrible reality of hell, and how they're going to go there unless they repent and trust in the Saviour is *very* unloving. We wouldn't want to do that, now would we? Furthermore, why would I need to read people's ancient spiritual texts? They are brimming with lies straight from Satan's blaspheming mouth. What can they possibly offer?
"Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?"
What? I assume there's an answer to the question about literal hell in here somewhere. I'm guessing... yes, it does exist? Well, that's good. Yay! Finally.
"I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that."
Oh, what do you know, *another* caricature. Anybody who preaches or argues a literal hell actually wants people to end up there. I'd comment on the last part of the paragraph, but I don't think I can. Does Mr. Bell practice being unintelligible or does it just come naturally to him?
"Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God. If you are really serious about evangelism, as I’m sure you friend would claim, and you wanted to save people from hell, then wouldn’t your hope be that everybody reconciles with God? Why would you hope for anything else? It would be your duty to long for that. I would actually ask questions about his salvation."
Mr. Bell, please *stop* with the strawmen. It's getting old. NOBODY WANTS PEOPLE TO END UP IN HELL. WE AGREE WITH YOU. Why would you ask questions about this guy's salvation though? Isn't that unloving and judgmental?
I think I finally have enough information to put together how Mr. Bell views Christians who talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. Let's see... we're unloving, cruel, power-mongering, and have warped views about people from other religions. We're also so arrogant and so self-righteous that anybody not like us deserves to go to hell. In fact, we want them there. They deserve it and we don't. Mwhahahaa!
Okay, all the sarcasm aside (I know it was alot) for now. I didn't write all this to be mean, but because believers should be made aware of people like Rob Bell. He is at best aberant in his theology and at worst heretical. I believe he is dangerous and is leading many people astray. Jesus said that we will know false prophets and teachers by their fruit. I'm not sure at this point if Rob Bell is one of these, but I'm starting to be concerned. To be safe, we should distance ourselves from him until he either repents or at least clarifies his teachings.
Posted by Concerned Christian | Posted at 07/04/2007 2:04 AMHmm, Sounds like the "concened Christians" has some issues of his own.
"Can we say, "caricature"? Seriously, what Christian acts like this? Who wants to use Jesus to accumulate political power? Who's talking about using legislation to make people more moral? Nobody of course. Mr. Bell, are you trying to pull a fast one on us, or are you that deceived yourself? On a side note, Jesus actually did get angry at his followers at times. Does "Get thee behind me Satan!" ring a bell?"
First of all are you living in a non existent Christian utopia where you think the Church is all that Jesus desires it to be. Don't you realize that the majority of the people who don't know Jesus, do not have a high view of the Christians or the Church. What you call "mush" are some of the very things that will help us engage and reach this world that for the most part has no use for the Church or agenda driven Christians.
Also it appears that you aren't even paying attention to what you are reading you are just looking to vent. For instance - "On a side note, Jesus actually did get angry at his followers at times. Does "Get thee behind me Satan!" ring a bell?" That is exactly what Rob said. The only time you see Jesus getting angry with people are with those who are his followers. "There is not one instance in Jesus’ teachings where he gets angry with somebody who isn’t a follower of his or someone who doesn’t love God".
And just for the record, I'm not sure if you could make a more ignorant statement than "I think I finally have enough information to put together how Mr. Bell views Christians who talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. Let's see... we're unloving, cruel, power-mongering, and have warped views about people from other religions." If you took time to ever listen to Rob's teaching you would realize that he is a Christian who talks about all the things you just mentioned.
In reality, maybe you have enough information to know how many people who don't follow Jesus really view agenda driven, unloving, judgmental Christians. And yes along with Mr. Bell there are many of us who agree that people like this are not just strawmen but they actually do exist and sometimes make uneducated comments about others who are simply encouraging us to take the plank out of our own eye before trying to remove the speck from another (I believe you can find chapter and verse for that).
I could go on but I am tired.
Posted by vic | Posted at 07/04/2007 4:49 AM"For instance a lot of Christians have really warped views about people from other religions." Like what?
"God calls us to respect the image of God in all of God’s image bearers." Doesn't scripture teach that those who are not of Christ are not God's children?
"So we need to challenge the theology that wants to label all the world into these nice neat boxes and that wants to condemn these people" Didn't Jesus say that there are only 2 boxes. Those who were FOR Him and those who were AGAINST Him? And didn't He also say that the entire world is condemned? Wouldn't telling people that they are already condemned be the Christian thing to do? Right? Don't we have to let people know which box they are in? Saved or un-saved?
"We need to challenge something because it gets in the way of the very thing Jesus calls us to be. Love your neighbor. If you can’t even conceive of your neighbor outside of this giant label...," Wouldn't telling our neighbor that they will end up in hell if they step out of this world without denying their current religion and putting on Christ, be the loving thing to do?
"if you have never read their sacred texts and you can make these grand statements about their eternal destiny then how are you ever going to love your neighbor?" Do we really need to read their texts to know that they are on their way to hell? And again, wouldn't warning them about the fact that they are on their way to hell be the loving thing to do? If someone was about to step in front of a bus, I think the loving thing to do would be to warn them about it.
"You have no voice with them and Jesus called you to have a voice with them. So I am going to challenge that because I am trying to be obedient to Jesus" Did Jesus really say that we should have a voice with them? I remember Jesus saying "if the world listens to you it is because you are of the world." and "if the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." and "blessed are you if the world hates you." and "He that is of God hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God." Doesn't this teach us that we shouldn't have a voice with the world, and that if we do then we're not speaking from God? Shouldn't we be rejected and hated for the things that we say to the world?
Vic? any answers to these questions?
Posted by dogma | Posted at 07/04/2007 8:48 AMIf you insist...
"God calls us to respect the image of God in all of God’s image bearers." Doesn't scripture teach that those who are not of Christ are not God's children?
Yes Scripture teaches this but there is a difference between being a Christian and being created in the image of God. All people are created in the image of God, therefore there should be a respect and love for all people...
"So we need to challenge the theology that wants to label all the world into these nice neat boxes and that wants to condemn these people" Didn't Jesus say that there are only 2 boxes. Those who were FOR Him and those who were AGAINST Him? And didn't He also say that the entire world is condemned? Wouldn't telling people that they are already condemned be the Christian thing to do? Right? Don't we have to let people know which box they are in? Saved or un-saved?
Didn't Jesus say that he did not come to condemn the world? Why, because they are already condemned. The point is not that we don't talk to people about judgment but rather how we do this. In every instance that Jesus confronted the non religious "sinners" it was always in a loving relevant, relational way. Yes He clearly drew lines in the sand but in a way that was attractive and not offensive. With the exception of course being to the religious elite who just loved being above the "sinners". He was quite offensive to some people like us (Christians) who thought they were better than others and didn't recognize the mercy and grace that had been extended to them.
"if you have never read their sacred texts and you can make these grand statements about their eternal destiny then how are you ever going to love your neighbor?" Do we really need to read their texts to know that they are on their way to hell? And again, wouldn't warning them about the fact that they are on their way to hell be the loving thing to do? If someone was about to step in front of a bus, I think the loving thing to do would be to warn them about it.
It would help if you knew something about what they believed before you told them how wrong they were. However I guess you can get most of that from a Chick tract or wherever. Why would your focus be so much on "warning them" as opposed to showing them the love that this there for them. What they are missing and what God offers to mankind through a relationship with Christ. That should be the focus. Of course yes you tell someone of the consequences of disbelief but how about the good news that we were called to proclaim to all nations?
Did Jesus really say that we should have a voice with them? I remember Jesus saying "if the world listens to you it is because you are of the world." and "if the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." and "blessed are you if the world hates you." and "He that is of God hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God." Doesn't this teach us that we shouldn't have a voice with the world, and that if we do then we're not speaking from God? Shouldn't we be rejected and hated for the things that we say to the world?
Jesus had a voice with them, all except the religious elite that is... Doesn't that Scripture say "if the world hates you because of me" the problem is most of the time it is not Jesus that many Christians are representing. Often we represent our doctrine, beliefs, dogmas you might say. So yes if you actually represent Christ well and the world rejects you, persecutes you, hates you, so be it. But don't use that as a cop out to be an unloving religious zealot like the Pharisees that killed our Lord.
hope you find this helpful vic
Posted by vic | Posted at 07/04/2007 9:26 AMHey Vic,
Just wanted to say I enjoyed the article, and I also enjoyed your responses to the others comments. I can't even begin tell you how surprised I am to see the exact people Rob Bell *caricatures* in his interview posting on this website.
Blindness.
Posted by EricZ | Posted at 07/04/2007 1:30 PMgotta say i love this interview.
the part where he talks about people going to church because they should, whether it's mediocre or even bad --- that is so healing to me. we recently had a quiet and peaceful departure from a church, where there is some spiritual abuse and other bad stuff, and i felt so bad about it. it's that religious background i have, that says we should never have a bad opinion about the church, etc.
so this article, from a pastor, is quite healing to my soul.
Posted by tammy | Posted at 07/05/2007 5:09 AMVic,
Thanks for responding to some of the criticisms posted above. My understanding of "The Ooze" is that its purpose is to provide a venue for a "conversation" between those of us who may or may not agree on the Po-Mo/EC movement.
It has been a hope of mine to engage believers within the Bell-ish camp (there's a label) for some time. Generally, I have found people on both sides to be impatient and angry.
But we have to remember this: How we engage one another--especially other believers who get our dander up--is a means by which exemplify Christ to the World.
My encouragement to you is stay cool. My ilk (classic evangelicalism) has been wrong at times in resorting to strawmen arguments, and mindless/childish name-calling.
Somewhere in the fray is the truth. God has hidden it. We have. Our emotions, our rationales, our finitude--each contribute to the fog. But perhaps the biggest fogmaker of all is pride.
So, thanks again bro, for doing the interview. Thanks for reporting on it. Thanks for taking the time to answer critics.
Finally, I think the criticism of Bell associating a "charicature" of us of the conservative evangelical persuasion is a legitimate one. Based exclusively on the above interview I felt pigeon-holed. I believe in a literal Hell. I have engaged in doctrinal debate in defense of that position. Bell's construct of an unloving Christian would consider me to be one of those guys he can't figure out.
Again, both sides are drawing a line in the sand, Bell included. He mentioned his unwillingness to listen to his critics in blogs, articles, and etc. That's unfortunate. He could be helped as we all are by hearing those who express concerns.
God Bless your ministry, Vic. Keep on keeping on.
Posted by Scott | Posted at 07/05/2007 6:51 AM"God has hidden it."
I meant to type "God has NOT hidden it. We have."
I didn't proofread my text close enough. Yeesh.
Posted by Scott | Posted at 07/05/2007 6:53 AMVic, thanks. I know Rob, and while not a disciple of his, have no doubt whatsoever about his serious commitment to the kingdom of Godfollowing Jesus.
Scott - very kind words. I come from that conservative evangelical camp. Probably a little harder (fundamentalist). But here's the thing...you're asking Vic to be too nice. I don't see Paul being that nice to Peter when he coddles the Judaizers. I don't see Jesus being that nice to the Pharisees when they tithe but don't care for their folks. In other words...there is a defensive strain of Christianity (ever since the church at Jerusalem) that seeks to protect it's peculiar brand of spirituality ('instruct them to avoid meat sacrificed to idols') from the missional edge (Paul at Corinth) that is proclaiming liberty to captives.
Seriously...to call Bell a heretic is amazing. The apostle Paul addresses churches that own slaves, sleep with their step-moms and get drunk around the Lord's table with more humility.
I'm tired of nice. The wounds of a friend are to be trusted. I know it. Let the self-appointed protectors of correct theology know it, also.
Posted by Joey | Posted at 07/08/2007 11:08 AMplease dont bring this latest batch of emergent mars religion to the uk, or europe,or anywhere else in the world for that matter thankyou ...keep it in america thanks. youve given us toronto(i know thats canada) brownsville, jakes,osteen,dollar,warren,engle,joiner,joels army,tv evangelists,tv prophets...make your mind up guys... read your bible pray everday as you follow Him great debate guys rod hull, lambretta man Posted by rod hull | Posted at 07/08/2007 11:23 AM
I hope that none of us desire to bring anything to anyone other than the truth. And may we all learn to do that in love as has been demonstrated by our Savior.
Joey I agree with you, there is a time and a place for rebuke and correction and frankly I have no problem with that, especially when people represent God in a way that is out of character to what see exemplified in Christ. However I am careful to not let my emotions fuel my responses so that it produces arguements rather than a genuine pursuit of truth.
Rod, all we are trying to do is study the Scripture, understand it, apply it to our lives and live that out in a real authentic way. There is no agenda other than a God given command to "Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourselves". Jesus said this was the first and greatest commandment and a summation of all the Law.
Personally I am very conservative when it comes to doctrine. However, I think we can believe and live out historic, orthodox, Christianity without a pious, self righteous attitude that has turned off so many people over the years. Our goal should be to represent Christ to the world as His ambassadors, and to represent Him well.
Thanks for all the comments and the conversation.
Posted by vic | Posted at 07/08/2007 2:15 PMDid Rob really say that his six year old listens to Jay-Z Unplugged? Have you read any of the lyrics of those songs? Not exactly in line with "Sex God" and certainly not able to print on this web site. Very vulgar and disturbed music. I hope somewhere there was a mistake!!! Posted by MJH | Posted at 07/08/2007 7:52 PM
He did actually say that. It may have been and probably was a joke but I honestly don't know... Posted by vic | Posted at 07/08/2007 8:12 PM
Vic, Thanks...I will ask Rob myself and get back to you. Also, another web site posted a copy of this interveiw and a comment on that site assumed Mars Hill paid 13 million for the mall and owes 8 million and wants to add 4 million to it. Rob was not talking about Mars Hill when he made those comments. Mars Hill was given the mall for free and paid for the land which is paid off if full. Mars Hill has no debt and isn't planning on putting any addition on that I am aware of let a lone spend 4 million in debt for it. just to clarify ( I couldn't comment on the other web site so I thought I would mention it here. ) Thanks. MJH Posted by MJH | Posted at 07/09/2007 8:02 AM
MJH, Thanks for making that clear to readers. What is the other site that you saw the interview on? I am going to try to get that fixed. Those sentences should be in bold print since that was my commentary on my own situation at that time. Posted by vic | Posted at 07/09/2007 10:15 AM
I love that Rob is willing to question things. I have been going to church since I was two weeks old, I grew up in a family with an incredible spiritual heritage, went to college to study for vocational ministry, and now am starting a church in Brew City and Rob brings up things that I have never heard of and they sound more correct than what I have heard for the past 29 years.
I don't agree with everything he says. (Yet) But I love that somtimes after he teaches I have to go back to the Bible and question how I have always read (and taught) certain passages.
I don't think as Teachers or Pastors we should give people all the answers. I think that mentality is why there is so much fear in the church today. We don't know why we believe anything. We just take our answers from the answer man and base our context of belief on what one guy who talks at me for 40 minutes a week says. That is so wrong. Most of the time when Jesus was done teaching his disciples, they didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He had to explain stuff to them all the time. But they did question him about what it meant. So for me as a teacher I would much rather have people walk away from my teaching with more questions than they walked in with. Then to seek the Holy Spirit and scripture to find an answer for themself. We have to teach people to be learners not just give them our opinion.
Posted by Tim | Posted at 07/09/2007 11:35 AMHello, I saw Rob Bell in Philly last year. He was awesome. We show his Nooma videos in our worship service for a time of reflection to follow. What an awesome leader! I have to say that when I go to see Jesus, if I had 10000 followers who had somehow come through my ministry, because of my example of how to walk with Jesus, that I am sure God will be proud. Way to go Rob! I love him and I think he rocks! The only thing to talk about is how he offends your spirit! I wonder what lies beneath! Posted by Nel | Posted at 07/10/2007 4:59 PM
I can't believe you've all ignored the real heresy in all of this - he doesn't even listen to Christian music. I mean, come on... that's what the first century Jewish Culture was *really* into... the Newsboys and DC Talk. Posted by Tony Myles | Posted at 07/12/2007 12:35 AM
Tony, that is awesome! Probably the best post thus far, I love it! P.S. Carmen Rocks ha ha ha Posted by vic | Posted at 07/12/2007 6:13 AM
Rob Bell is one of the greatest Christian thinkers of our time. Thanks, Vic, for the awesome interview.
I had the opportunity to meet Rob Bell two weeks ago and encourage him to keep up his good work. If you don't understand what Rob is saying then keep trying to learn and understand. It will eventually save you from the path toward a literal hell on which you are traveling today.
Posted by mark | Posted at 07/19/2007 7:40 PMVic, I heard back about the JayZ album Rob's son listens to. He said it was the edited version of the CD. (Via the church's email.) Unfortunately that version isn't any better. Removing the swear words doesn't remove the attitude toward multiple women.
Any way, I said I would get back, so I did.
The other web site with your interview is: planetpreterist.com/news-5326.html
I hope that helps. MJH
Posted by MHJ | Posted at 07/20/2007 3:23 PMVic,
First I love the interview. Very insightful. I had the opportunity to sit and chat with Rob for an hour or so at a NOOMA shoot here in Jacksonville, FL (the new “TODAY” NOOMA). No doubt in my mind that Rob is genuine in his pursuit to follow Jesus. What saddens me the most is to read the string of post/comments to your article of those who would rather spend precious time creating more diversity and distraction rather than respecting someone on the same team as they are on. Rob’s style is unique but he is reaching people in ways many of us just can’t. God gifted Rob to a certain calling and perhaps that calling differs from mine, from yours or anyone else who posted a comment on this blog. To me that’s okay and not something others should trash but rather embrace. Sometimes I think our need for control gets us so wrapped up in the details that we can easily miss the goal. Rob and Mars Hill are doing amazing things for those who are hurting in Grand Rapids and all over the world. I’ve watched men and women who were seeking God break down in tears while watching a NOOMA because it spoke to their issue and to their soul. That to me is God using Rob to open a door into someone’s heart that will then help them enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ.
If we could get out of our own way, and God’s way, and present a more unified front rather than constantly nitpicking at each other then seekers might see our unity and love rather than our division and need for control.
Posted by Daniel D | Posted at 08/04/2007 9:12 AMBefore I begin my comment Id like to say that Ive always been an avid fan of Rob Bell. I believe his works and thinking are constantly refreshing, and the way he has put things in the past really meet me where I am.
"Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?"
This seems void of human will. Ultimately I dont think one can compare the two. If human will is never stronger than God's grace and love, then it really isnt human will at all. If in every case God's grace and love redeem, even in the cases where there is no desire for such a redemption, then the fundamental belief in our will seems void. I am reminded of Lee Strobel in a Case for Faith, who in one of his interviews comes to the belief that second chances seem out of the question. And that even if given a second chance, that person would still choose hell because if it was a capability of that person to choose heaven at some point, God would have never ended their life before they were ready to make that switch. Thus affirming the belief that no one "dies unjustly before they are allowed to choose God's grace and love".
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.
It's really not like we've cooked these theories up. Jesus did. Of course this friend wouldnt want a literal hell, no one does! And to argue for a literal hell is not to be on "that side". I am with CS Lewis who states that the idea of hell is morally correct. To not have it would void our free will. I think hell is an extremely important biblical and Christian doctrine that Rob Bell is brushing aside.
Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God. If you are really serious about evangelism, as I’m sure you friend would claim, and you wanted to save people from hell, then wouldn’t your hope be that everybody reconciles with God? Why would you hope for anything else? It would be your duty to long for that. I would actually ask questions about his salvation.
I fully agree that should be our hope, but there is simply no evidence of such an event. Every new testament parable and inference suggests that not everyone will be in heaven, no matter how much we hope for this to be different, not accepting the reality of it as a Christian seems a bit naive and childish. There are simply people who want nothing to do with the Lord, who will never buy into what hes offering, and despite every inclination from an all powerful and all knowing God, will refuse what he has to offer. To believe in a reconciliation of such a person that even God knows will forever refuse to be redeemed, seems to undermine some of the core Christian doctrines.
Posted by Scott | Posted at 01/01/2008 1:31 AMVic
Hi I'm Phil, a lay leader of an inner city church in Liverpool UK. We are currently enjoying our year as European Capital of Culture 2008!
Sorry to have taken such a time to repsond, but I have only discovered the brilliant Ooze blog last week and am making up for lost time.
Who are some of these people on this blog? I say that because Rob's greatest detractors go under the names of "Concerned Christian" or "Dogma" (no forenames supplied )- the comment "we don't have to read their sacred texts to know they are going to hell" - smacks to me of someone who is quite pleased that adherents of other religions are hellbound...what is this fixation with hell all about anyway....Yes Jesus did mention hell on several occasions but nowhere near the number of times he taught about the Kingdom of God! Yesterday, I was on a training course, and by far the highlight of the day, was the time I spent in discussion with the young man sitting next to me, a 26 year old, originally from a rural area of Afghanistan, who left his country and his family as a 19 year old to flee from the Taleban who had taken contol of the region where he lived. He was a moderate Muslim, who had arrived here in the UK knowing virtually nobody, had built up a successful pizza business and was considering retrainign as a doctor, which is what he was thinking of doing when he fled his home country.
We are talking here of a living breathing human being who has suffered far more in his short life than I am sure that "Concerned Christian" or "Dogma" probably have in the USA. What is more important, that we tell this guy straight off that he is on his way to hell or that we listen to his story, allow our heart to ache with compassion for him, and admire his courage, his bravery and his determination.
Reflecting on this a disturbing thought struck me. I would long for this guy to come to know Christ, but my fear would be that having feld from the Muslim Taleban, he could find himself in the clutches of the Christian version of the Taleban (trust me...they do exist!!) Seriously, there are several Christians of my own acquaintance who, it appears to me, have an almost Taleban approach to their fellow Christians. If it is not done on their terms, in their way,a ccording to their rules, it is automatically unsound and unacceptable. There are people who love nothing better to sit in judgement on all that goes on as if they were are God's chosen arbiters of all that is acceptable! No they are not!!! They have never been appointed to such a role - they are merely self appointed to it!!! It really brasses me off!
What really worries me is when I find people ouside the church whose company I love and cherish and who I could happily spend hours with, and then realise that there are fellow Christians with whom spending ten minutes in their company is eight or nine minutes too many! I am sure that they feel the same way about me, incidentally!! What then really worries me is that I am contracted and committed to sending eternity with them...I am just hoping that our Father's many mansions will give me plenty of opportunity to explore and escape!
The previous message to this one was posted on NewYear's Day. It is now just after Easter and in between Christmas and Easter I have had the privilige, for that is what it was, of reading "Velvet Elvis" - I really do not know where these accusations of Rob Bell being evasive stem from? Some of the statements he makes in the book are devastatingly clear (which is what many don't like!) and some of the questions he poses and the amazing phraseology he uses to pose them is deeply thought provoking and disturbing, just as it should be! This man is not to be worshipped and adored (I find it ironic that much of the criticism of the "adulation" of Rob Bell comes from the very wing of the church who have made "exaltation of the pastor" almost into an artform). However, I believe that he is to be listened to attentively, respected, and his ministry is to be recognised and deeply valued because it has to be said , the likes of Concerned Christaina and Dogma do not have a snowball's chance in engaging, connecting or loving the people that Rob is able to reach through his ministry. My suspicion is that the kind of people who congregate in their thousands at Mars Hill are not the sort of people some people want to see in the Kingdom. Why can't we all just rejoice that these people are being reached and influenced for Christ...or is that just too much to ask or expect?
Finally, I have a long standing Christian friend, with a deep passion for punk music in his earlier years, one of the brightest, intelligent and naturally funny people I have ever had the priviligre of knowing. In all the years I have known him, I have longed for a book to loan to him which will explain to him the love of God to be found in Jesus, which treats him as an intelligent equal, which does not talk down to him in patronising or condescending terms. Until recently, despite the plethora of books around, there was not one I felt I could give him with any real confidence. Can I just say, thank you Rob Bell. I shall bide my time but hopefully will have an opportunity at some point to pass him a copy of Velvet Elvis.
Can I just finish Vic, Rob etc by saying this, For many years now, we in the UK have had a pretty negative sterotype of the average American Christian fed too us by the media over here...The comments of Concerned Christian and Dogma do not help, I am afraid. Never has the image of American Christianity been poorer or more negative in the UK than it has been here recently. In visiting theooze and other American Emerging Church websites, please can I say a massive thank you for all that you are doing to redress the balance and present a far more positive and life affirming image. You guys and girls are getting loads of flak, but just press on and continue to equip people for the immense challenges that lie ahead as we seek to enable people to impact their culture with the love of Christ in ways whcih are relevant and influential. Also be encouraged that the Emerging Church movement is gaining momentum and beginning to take large strides on this side of the Atlantic too.
Take good care - and Concerned Christian and Dogma, if you are deeply offended by some of my comments, which I guess you mightl be, you are only feeling the same as some of your fellow brothers and sisters are when they read some of the comments that come their way.
Take good care everone
Phil
Posted by philg | Posted at 04/01/2008 4:00 AMI think part of the problem with this "debate" about Rob Bell is that somehow there is a feeling of "either this or that". Rob tends to be ALL about being the hands and feet of Jesus. ALL about loving others and doing good (providing fresh water, etc). These are VERY important things, admirable, and right on with what Christ displayed to us.
However, if this is what he thinks being a Christian is ALL about, he's just as bad as the typical "church" he condemns. While a lot of churches and Christians get too caught up in "doctrine" or who's saved or not saved, and often just forget to love people and actually "work out their salvation", it is just as dangerous, and probably more so, to only be "good" people, with no doctrine or TRUTH.
To me, if you follow down Rob's path WITHOUT also having a very solid theological and doctrinal foundation, you would very likely end up being no different than Oprah and Dr. Phil and other people who genuinely care for society and helping people. The only difference would be that it's done under the banner of Jesus. Don't get me wrong, being under the banner of Jesus is all the reason there is to do good and help others.
BUT, we can't forget that among doing good and loving others and accepting others, there is TRUTH to consider. In the end, there is "saved" and "unsaved", there is Heaven and there is Hell. We can love people and help them all day, but if we love them all day in the name of Jesus but never tell them who Jesus is, then what's the point?
Isn't Jesus our Saviour? What did He come to save us from? Polluted water? Starvation? No, the only reason the "Word became flesh" was to reconcile us to Him. He came to live, but ultimately to die, and live again.
If we know an agnostic, or a Mormon, and we love them, and we fellowship with them, and we accept them, and we don't judge them, but then can't discuss TRUTH and doctrine, and salvation (which naturally implies being "saved" from something), then what has all of our "goodness" done for their souls? In the end, isn't Jesus more concerned with their soul than with providing clean water to them? I'm not implying that it's what Rob thinks, but you can't just do all the good works to put yourself in position to share Christ, and then not be prepared to defend the faith.
Remember where I started the post. BOTH things are important. We should be the hands and feet of Christ, helping those in need. It gives us a platform and credibility to then be able to share with them. BUT, once the time is at hand, and the conversation goes that way, and we share, it is of the utmost importance to be able to share solid, Biblical TRUTH with them.
53 minutes into our conversation with them about "God", if they ask about Hell, it is no time to skate around it for fear of "offending" them, or for fear of ruffling feathers, or for fear of "judging" them. It is our obligation to speak the TRUTH that the Lord has provided us in His word. When it comes to that, it is not our idea, not what's "true for me". It is THE TRUTH, that His Word gives. Not our opinion, His. We are not the judge, He is, but He is a Just God, also full of grace.
Hell is absolutely essential to explaining God's Grace and justification. Sure, it doesn't have to be your leading headline, but you can't just say "oh that's the problem with the church, always wanting to argue for the existence of Hell". You can not watch the news, but that doesn't change the fact that someone was murdered that day. And just because someone says, "three people were shot in a drive-by shooting yesterday", the doesn't mean that I am glad there was a shooting, or that it's "the side I'm on".
In fact, I don't think I would ever argue so strongly for the fact that Hell exsists, unless it was with the pastor of a church acting like it may or may not be true and that it's just not really important anyway. That's where you'll find me arguing about it. If a Muslim wanted to argue with me about what Hell or Heaven is really like, I would probably be a little vague and focus on more important things in Bible and who Jesus was or wasn't, that would be a more appropriate or "core" issue to have a dialog about. But the pastor of a Christian church? Sure, that warrants a lively debate about the existence of Hell.
The mainstream church has to get away from a bubble-Christianity, be willing to get dirty and be the hands and feet. But in this post-modern era of relativism, we cannot abandon TRUTH and scripture and doctrine. We have to be both to the world. We have to give them literal water, but we have to share with the idea of drinking from Him, as he told the woman at the well. And in that discussion comes the WHOLE scripture, the WHOLE truth, Hell and everything.
It's interesting to me that Rob mentions Christians living in "fear". It seems so clear to me that he is willing to be the hands and feet of Christ and do good. But isn't that the "safe" part of being a Christian. If you just come in and help people, what do you have to fear? What's harder to do, and what would naturally bring more fear, would be to do those things AND be bold in Biblical truth. Call a spade a spade, Hell is what it is. The fearful thing to do is to avoid the topic, be vague and give an answer that would be comfortable on Larry King.
We need leaders that break from the mold of the "bubble church" But we don't need them to leave doctrine behind at the expense of Biblical truth.
Posted by Jonathan Dennis | Posted at 07/28/2008 1:43 PMI think Rob Bell is right on with his answer in this interview. I have personally met many Christians who go about vehemently arguing about hell, demons, what brings people to hell (as they claim to know it) and that is where their passion ends. If these people were to focus more on the things Jesus was passionate about maybe more would get done. Besides, Jesus performed miracles for a reason; help the sick, shield the weak, and repair the broken. Maybe it would be best if we made like Jesus and got out there to help instead of talking, condemning, and pointing our fingers. I guess this shows that it is easier to post on a website to criticize a man about his beliefs on hell than to get out and live like Jesus did. Maybe if we all were to live a little more like Jesus did Hell wouldn't even matter. That was his point. 1 John 4:16-19 Posted by Matt | Posted at 12/02/2008 6:21 PM