Have you read Dick Staub's "The Culturally Savvy Christian"? http://www.dickstaub.com/culturewatch.php?record_id=1065 Great read, does a good job of articulating a way to recover cultural living for Christians.
keith, i, too, share your horror. but not with the christian subculture, but, rather, the exploitation of said subculture. christianity has always been a subculture, the danger is in having it absorbed into a empire oriented shadow subculture. one that exploits and capitalizes, rather than subverts and socializes. objects are objects, noble or ignoble. it is this creation of the "other" form of capitalism that needs to be examined, expounded upon and extermintated. in this case, i think the arguement is not with the horse, but the jockey.
Hi,
I have to disagree. The Christian subculture is a safe-haven for many people who cannot make it in world the way that it is. I find nothing wrong with people expressing their artistic ideas or wit through Christian art or t-shirts. If anything the church is the problem. The church has taken over responisbility of evangelizing rather than the people actually living Christian lifestyles. Christian bookstores are usually run by these evangelicals with money. Little guys who express Christian art and with other that is not "mainstream" like Lord's Gym finds no investors or has to work through the secualr system where it usually fails or is possibly "blocked" by those without faith. The problem is the system of Christian consumerism as you call it is tied or led by money rather than by living it through genuine Christian principles.
Thanks. God Bless.
Aaron.
My main concern is the retreat of Christian people from the actual world around them.
Artists who express their faith through creative arts are not the enemy. Those who exploit them for profit are.
The market once served the art, now the art serves the market.
kg
I have to agree with the author of this post, though I think he's going a little extreme. Christian bookstores are aggravating Christianity's attempt to reach the culture. Think of it this way, if Christian bookstores didn't exist, would any fewer books on the faith be published? Maybe a few, but the sales would mostly be picked up by "secular" bookstores. They would in turn expand their religion sections based on the increased sales, and the little quality Christian media which exists could find a larger audience.
I mean, there's also a moral reason against Christian stores, but I don't think they should exist for any other reason than that they actually keep Christian materials from reaching those "lost" out there.
Nice rant, Keith. Wish I'd said it.
Keith Love the article man. This has been a big thing for me the last few years beginning when I went to college. I find myself so often just continuing to feed into christian subculture. I'm a huge fan of Tim Keller from NYC who has talked a lot about how the church should exist within culture.
I checked out your website and loved it. I'm just getting started with this whole writing thing. Thanks for stopping by and reading my article. Peace out.
great post - I about fell over when I found out a church in my mom's hometown bought a skating rink that was next door to their building. And - yes - it is open 6 days a week and they only play "Christian" music. And all of the unchurched kids they hoped would find it a good place to hang out? ... have gone to the bowling alley down the street. Good choice. The music has to be better. d
I'm right there with you. But- I find it incredibly ironic that this post is lined with (I assume) Google-chosen ads for Christian tshirts & ringtones.
Hello,
I do agree with a lot of what you have said. I have a "Christian T Shirt" and maybe I am just naive but I have always thought that wearing one of those shirts also gives me an opportunity to share the Lord with them. For an example one of my Doctors is from a Muslem country and he asked me about the shirt and I had the privlilage to share Christ with him and that instance alone makes it worthwhile to me. If I am wrong please share it with me because I also believe that a lot of the people who read and post their beliefs about this have been Christians longer than I and drink from a deeper cup.
Thank you, Stephen Case
It is difficult to be in the world and not of the world. In the world there is conflict, war, greed, political corruption, oppression, injustice, immorality, pain and suffering. So we create an alternative universe, kind of like a virtual gaming world. A place where all the bad words have been removed or bleeped out. A place where the all the music sounds almost like the original music but with simplistic lyrics that remind you of a dull Sunday School class. It is supposed to be a "safe" world where no one can be offended by songs on the radio or by movies on DVD. Where people only buy and sell from others who are people just like them. Safe from offensive opinions and beliefs that might challenge our faith. Kind of like a gated community, where only the people who belong are allowed in. But is this "safe" world a place where faith can grow and deepen? Is this a world that offers something compelling about God or about a new way to live in community? Or does it just look like a sanitized or Disney-ized version of a radical way of life and faith that changes the world? In my opinion, the alternative world of the christian subculture is an escape from the real world that leads to isolation and stagnation, not growth and new life as Jesus promised.
-Tom
"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.
"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, p75-76.
I have to agree with you for the most part bro. I freaking hate the stupid garbage many stores sell. A "Christ" toothpaste shirt? What are these people thinking? Christian radio isn't my favorite idea either, not the kind that plays "worship music" anyway. We are to be IN the world, not of it. So I agree, we need to stop creating false realities and doctrines of men. However, being a musical guy I can't stand not having music that doesn't depress me. For example, I like the sound of Metallica, Nirvana, Staind, Korn, Limp Biscit, etc. But I do NOT like the lyrics. For the most part I HATE the lyrics, they bring me down. This is why I rarely listen to bands that do not have a positive message. Non-Christian bands tend to be very fed up and angry, and often aim missles at God in there songs. I am NOT a guy who spotlights people saying bs like, "you're a sinner" because so am I! I am a sinner that God has forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ. But my favorite music is hard, heavy, and loud. It is EXTREMELY rare to find a band that doesn't depress me of this variety in the general market. I do think that Christian artists should move their bands into the real world and break the illusion though. We need to wake up and stop living in a false reality in a safe little haven, while the world we are called to love is left to burn, leaving them to scream curses at God when He is the only freedom. Anyway, I guess that isn't even really a disagreement is it? Ah well.
Blessings brother, Bryant
I have to disagree with your idea that there is nothing "secular" There are two dangers in the world right now and it is tainting the church as well as the world. Secular Humanism and Materialism. If you don't think "secular" exists, you basically tear down some of your own core beliefs of what it is to be a christian. Be Holy as I am Holy means nothing for a christian if you consider that nothing is sacred or holy.
Egad, what a rant!
I can't say that I haven't felt the same, but...at the same time...I have to recognize that this kind of shelter isn't always a bad thing; for a time, all of the things you mentioned were -very- helpful to me to help protect me...albeit haphazardly...from a very destructive home life.
Does the Church need a reality check? Ooooh yes! However, we have to be willing to submit to what -God's- will is for these things, and not merely get carried away with our own insensed feelings.
Well, I'm not sure, but the way I understood the argument was that there is no secular. But sacred and Holy are very real things. My stance is against deeming certain "secular" things unclean just because. That is legalism and it is actually something we are told not to do in the book of Colossians. My main problem with this Christian subculture is the fact that we turn inwardly, and shun a world in need. They need us. My main issue is with Christian bands that say "well I'm more comfortable over here with the people who agree with me". That's good and all, but we aren't supposed to be comfortable, we're supposed to be obedient. People don't usually look to the church, see it turning inwardly and being almost like some kind of club, and think "wow cool, sign me up!" We are not called to judge, but to love. We definitely aren't supposed to close into a tight circle and make ourselves numb to the real world. We need to pray for God to open our eyes, and help us see what He does when He looks at people. Otherwise we set ourselves up to fall. So we should love people and serve in the way that Jesus did when He ministered when He was on the earth. He yelled at the proud religious leaders, but when do you ever hear Him shouting at the "sinners"? If you expect anyone to want to hear about Jesus, you need to be authentic. Show them Jesus through acts of love, a "holy roller" t-shirt that says something like "Jesus Christ, the original" that looks like he coca-cola logo is lame. It's not being a light to the world. Acts of kindness, love, mercy, generosity, that will catch people's attention, not stupid "christian crap" like the aforementioned t-shirt example. Holy exists. Worldly exists. But having our own like club that turns inwardly is not a good thing. It cripples us, weakens us, and hardens our hearts to the suffering of our fellow human beings.
God bless
What is frightening is the venacular with which you want to destroy that said subculture.....LISTEN TO YOURSELF.....seen any slasher flicks lately? Played DOOM or some other horrible carnage "game" that actually brainwashes one to see slayings as quite normal. Compared to how you are seething to lay waste to some scripture breath mints, I'd say.....you scare me sir. I'll take the breath mints over your rant!! Bet your daily activity includes gaming of some sort and a wide variety of pulp fiction kind of films. Hopefully you are porn free!!
When I say that there is no "Sacred" or "Secular" division in the actual world, I am not denying that God is Holy. Of course He is, and only He is Holy. T-shirts are not Holy. Gum is not Holy, even if you put a cross on it.
What I most object to is the idea that we have the ability to declare something as being "Sacred" when it is only the artificial reality we have created in our little subculture.
In Matthew 7:6 when Jesus Himself told us 'not to give dogs to give dogs what is sacred…' he is not arguing for a division between "Sacred" and "Secular" in our reality.
The text actually says, "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
Let's be very clear: I don't argue that there is nothing "Holy" in my article, instead I argue against a man-made subculture that identifies certain styles of music, art, clothing, media, etc. as being "Holy" when only God is Holy. I believe that when we market the Gospel and Christianize beer ads, etc. we're breaking this command of Jesus in Matthew 7:6.
What Jesus is urging us to do in this passage is not to cheapen what is Holy. How does your Lord's Gymn t-shirt accomplish this?
This passage could be paraphrased as: "Do not persist in offering what is Holy or of value to those who have no appreciation for it, because your gift will not only become contaminated and be despised, your generous efforts could also be rebuffed and perhaps even openly attacked."
Welcome to the Christian Subculture.
Keith Giles http://www.keithgiles.com
I would say I wrestle with the same tension. And it's interesting that you mention the Berlin Wall, as I am currently living in this city, learning the culture, language, and completely immersing myself in the history of this country in order to understand and love my teammates and those my life becomes the face of Christ to daily. What is even more intriguing is that this very wall was intended to keep people enslaved on the east side from reaching freedom on the west side. Those doing the enslaving feared freedom, and so anyone attempting to cross the wall, would be shot. Yet people from the east WANTED to be free, and would risk their very life to attain this freedom, and those on the west, welcomed them with open arms.
Too often in our Christian "world" we put this very same wall up, separating the things we "fear" (even though we are FREE) from our own self-righteous "good." And in constructing our own "wall", instead of people seeing our actual freedom in Christ and desiring that for themselves, we actually repel them! So far, I have not met too many people passionate about hopping the "Christian" wall, because for them, it does not symbolize freedom, but slavery.
If God calls us to be Holy, would he ask of us something that he knew we couldn't achieve? So when you see the command to be Holy as I am Holy, what does that mean to you?
I would agree with you that the church and the christian sub-culture has turned into a corporation trying to capitilize on a product and I think that cheapens the gospel into non relevence in peoples lives. They can get better packaged products from McDonalds if all they want is a quick fix or a fancy looking product. For instance, this time of the year on Christian radio stations, they spend over 1/2 the day begging for money for their next year budget. They call it a shareathon or something, but it is just silly. Play some good music and I'll understand your dilemna, but don't recycle your top 10 songs every hour all day and beg me for money. (rant over)
At the same time, we should be clear that we can be relevant to an unsaved culture without being so "relevant" that we lose our testimony. I knew a guy that went to bars to hang with his unsaved friends and at first it was an occasional beer and now he is an alcoholic and not really a christian at all. I don't think that is what Paul meant when he spoke of being relevant.
It isn't about being afraid of sinners, but it is about understanding your limitations. I wouldn't go to a gentlemans club to try to be relevant to some vendors I work with because well first my wife would cut it off....the marriage you know. It just isn't the type of atmosphere I need to be in for my own relationship with God. You may think that is silly, but I see it all the time. Christians that think that being relevant means drinking, seeing all the newest movies, buying all the newest CD's, going places they shouldn't go.
I hope you see what I mean in all that.
Qc: If God calls us to be Holy, would he ask of us something that he knew we couldn't achieve? So when you see the command to be Holy as I am Holy, what does that mean to you?
My answer to that is, "That's another article"! But seriously, a good question. God does ask us to do something that He knows we cannot do. Why does He do that? I compare that to my asking my two elementary-age sons to move our sofa in the den into the back yard for me. I know they are not strong enough. If their reaction is to tell me "It's too hard, we can't do that!" and walk away, I know that they are more focused on their own ability. But, if they respond by walking over to the sofa and putting their hands on it to obey me, THEN I will step over and do it myself, because I wanted to see the condition of their hearts.
Jesus said, (all the time), that if you love me you will obey me.
If Jesus prayed to God that we would not be taken out of the world, why are we taking ourselves out?
The Christian Subculture is NOT God's plan for His people. We must tear down those walls and begin to love people and bless them and serve them.
Read the New Testament and watch how Jesus models this to his disciples all through the Gospels. Read the book of Acts and watch how they followed through in this teaching/training so that "there was no needy person among them."
Jesus was radically inclusive. His followers should be too.
peas, kg
check out Dick Staub's Posted by Steve Heyduck | Posted at 10/25/2007 9:00 AM
Every one of you ought to go out and get Jonah 33's latest Album "The Heart of War." It is a musical version of Giles' post. These guys are the real deal when it comes to confronting and challenging the Christian subculture. It's a war, and we should fire at will.
In light of your further explaination, I agree completely.
I heard Randall Balmer of Barnard College recently speak of how Christianty historically thrives at the margins of society, and wavers when it attains respectability and power. I do agree. This means that our hope lies in the collapse of our respectability and institutional status- yes, that thing that we have worked so hard to attain was never the prize the Lord had for us. I do not know when or how this will happen, but it is inevitable and prophetic.
I'm reading a book called The Intelligent Church by Steve Chalke. Near the beginning is a brilliant analogy about English geese living on farms.
In a nutshell: The geese on the farms eat from their troughs all day and get fat. In the fall, the wild geese start flying south in V shapes. The fat farm geese hear nature calling as well, and so they flap their wings and run around their pens, but they can't get off the ground. So they go back to eating. And then they end up on the table for Christmas dinner.
I've been chewing on this analogy for about a month. To be honest, I don't totally remember what Chalke's exact point was, but I think it had to do with Christians hiding in their churches, unwilling (and eventually unable) to make a difference in the world. I think Keith's article makes a similar point, but it seems that, in his self-described anger, he would have us burn down the farms themselves and kill the farmers. I think what people need is to be made aware that the gates to the pens are actually open, and that we need to go searching for God out in the wild, rather than simply being spoon-fed spirituality by our pastors every week without wrestling with deep things on our own. It's fine to gather in the pen and eat together from the trough, but it's debilitating to hide there.
Christian sub-culture will never "die." There is nothing wrong with providing Christians with comforts and alternatives to secular norms that make life a little more fun or safe in one sense or another. The problem is when people lose their sense of mission, and when that happens, it's not the fault of Christian radio or t-shirts.
Christians should be radically inclusive. And I agree that short-sighted Church-ianity, isolated and steeped in its own conceit, is tragic and problematic and should be addressed. But I doubt Jesus would take this fist-shaking, finger-pointing approach. His hands heal and embrace and invite. That's what we should do.
"The Christian Subculture is essentially a wall that we build to keep ourselves from the world. Like the Berlin Wall, or the Great Wall of China, or Hadrian's Wall, or the wall between Palestine and Israel, it is an artificial border designed by us, the supposed followers of Jesus, in order to isolate us from the ones we are commanded to love... Jesus would want us to smash down that wall. "
Like I've aways said, The drywalls in Jesus' house were meant to be broken down, not for our personal privacy. I think His original plan for His children's home was an open, airy, loft concept.
Good article Keith. Keep it up. 'Seph
(8)
Have you read Dick Staub's "The Culturally Savvy Christian"? http://www.dickstaub.com/culturewatch.php?record_id=1065 Great read, does a good job of articulating a way to recover cultural living for Christians. Posted by Steve Heyduck | Posted at 10/19/2007 10:01 AM
keith, i, too, share your horror. but not with the christian subculture, but, rather, the exploitation of said subculture. christianity has always been a subculture, the danger is in having it absorbed into a empire oriented shadow subculture. one that exploits and capitalizes, rather than subverts and socializes. objects are objects, noble or ignoble. it is this creation of the "other" form of capitalism that needs to be examined, expounded upon and extermintated. in this case, i think the arguement is not with the horse, but the jockey. Posted by chas pike | Posted at 10/19/2007 12:20 PM
Hi,
I have to disagree. The Christian subculture is a safe-haven for many people who cannot make it in world the way that it is. I find nothing wrong with people expressing their artistic ideas or wit through Christian art or t-shirts. If anything the church is the problem. The church has taken over responisbility of evangelizing rather than the people actually living Christian lifestyles. Christian bookstores are usually run by these evangelicals with money. Little guys who express Christian art and with other that is not "mainstream" like Lord's Gym finds no investors or has to work through the secualr system where it usually fails or is possibly "blocked" by those without faith. The problem is the system of Christian consumerism as you call it is tied or led by money rather than by living it through genuine Christian principles.
Thanks. God Bless.
Aaron.
Posted by Aaron Cavanaugh | Posted at 10/19/2007 12:53 PMMy main concern is the retreat of Christian people from the actual world around them.
Artists who express their faith through creative arts are not the enemy. Those who exploit them for profit are.
The market once served the art, now the art serves the market.
kg
Posted by Keith Giles | Posted at 10/19/2007 1:04 PMI have to agree with the author of this post, though I think he's going a little extreme. Christian bookstores are aggravating Christianity's attempt to reach the culture. Think of it this way, if Christian bookstores didn't exist, would any fewer books on the faith be published? Maybe a few, but the sales would mostly be picked up by "secular" bookstores. They would in turn expand their religion sections based on the increased sales, and the little quality Christian media which exists could find a larger audience.
I mean, there's also a moral reason against Christian stores, but I don't think they should exist for any other reason than that they actually keep Christian materials from reaching those "lost" out there.
Posted by Ben Lancaster | Posted at 10/19/2007 1:48 PMNice rant, Keith. Wish I'd said it. Posted by Christian Beyer | Posted at 10/19/2007 2:39 PM
Keith Love the article man. This has been a big thing for me the last few years beginning when I went to college. I find myself so often just continuing to feed into christian subculture. I'm a huge fan of Tim Keller from NYC who has talked a lot about how the church should exist within culture.
I checked out your website and loved it. I'm just getting started with this whole writing thing. Thanks for stopping by and reading my article. Peace out.
Posted by Spencer Spellman | Posted at 10/19/2007 3:35 PMgreat post - I about fell over when I found out a church in my mom's hometown bought a skating rink that was next door to their building. And - yes - it is open 6 days a week and they only play "Christian" music. And all of the unchurched kids they hoped would find it a good place to hang out? ... have gone to the bowling alley down the street. Good choice. The music has to be better. d Posted by Deb | Posted at 10/20/2007 8:33 PM
I'm right there with you. But- I find it incredibly ironic that this post is lined with (I assume) Google-chosen ads for Christian tshirts & ringtones. Posted by agma | Posted at 10/21/2007 9:49 AM
Hello,
I do agree with a lot of what you have said. I have a "Christian T Shirt" and maybe I am just naive but I have always thought that wearing one of those shirts also gives me an opportunity to share the Lord with them. For an example one of my Doctors is from a Muslem country and he asked me about the shirt and I had the privlilage to share Christ with him and that instance alone makes it worthwhile to me. If I am wrong please share it with me because I also believe that a lot of the people who read and post their beliefs about this have been Christians longer than I and drink from a deeper cup.
Thank you, Stephen Case
Posted by Stephen Case | Posted at 10/21/2007 11:04 AMIt is difficult to be in the world and not of the world. In the world there is conflict, war, greed, political corruption, oppression, injustice, immorality, pain and suffering. So we create an alternative universe, kind of like a virtual gaming world. A place where all the bad words have been removed or bleeped out. A place where the all the music sounds almost like the original music but with simplistic lyrics that remind you of a dull Sunday School class. It is supposed to be a "safe" world where no one can be offended by songs on the radio or by movies on DVD. Where people only buy and sell from others who are people just like them. Safe from offensive opinions and beliefs that might challenge our faith. Kind of like a gated community, where only the people who belong are allowed in. But is this "safe" world a place where faith can grow and deepen? Is this a world that offers something compelling about God or about a new way to live in community? Or does it just look like a sanitized or Disney-ized version of a radical way of life and faith that changes the world? In my opinion, the alternative world of the christian subculture is an escape from the real world that leads to isolation and stagnation, not growth and new life as Jesus promised.
-Tom
"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.
"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, p75-76.
Posted by Tom | Posted at 10/21/2007 5:15 PMI have to agree with you for the most part bro. I freaking hate the stupid garbage many stores sell. A "Christ" toothpaste shirt? What are these people thinking? Christian radio isn't my favorite idea either, not the kind that plays "worship music" anyway. We are to be IN the world, not of it. So I agree, we need to stop creating false realities and doctrines of men. However, being a musical guy I can't stand not having music that doesn't depress me. For example, I like the sound of Metallica, Nirvana, Staind, Korn, Limp Biscit, etc. But I do NOT like the lyrics. For the most part I HATE the lyrics, they bring me down. This is why I rarely listen to bands that do not have a positive message. Non-Christian bands tend to be very fed up and angry, and often aim missles at God in there songs. I am NOT a guy who spotlights people saying bs like, "you're a sinner" because so am I! I am a sinner that God has forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ. But my favorite music is hard, heavy, and loud. It is EXTREMELY rare to find a band that doesn't depress me of this variety in the general market. I do think that Christian artists should move their bands into the real world and break the illusion though. We need to wake up and stop living in a false reality in a safe little haven, while the world we are called to love is left to burn, leaving them to scream curses at God when He is the only freedom. Anyway, I guess that isn't even really a disagreement is it? Ah well.
Blessings brother, Bryant
Posted by Bryant | Posted at 10/23/2007 2:08 AMI have to disagree with your idea that there is nothing "secular" There are two dangers in the world right now and it is tainting the church as well as the world. Secular Humanism and Materialism. If you don't think "secular" exists, you basically tear down some of your own core beliefs of what it is to be a christian. Be Holy as I am Holy means nothing for a christian if you consider that nothing is sacred or holy. Posted by Qc | Posted at 10/23/2007 7:37 AM
Egad, what a rant!
I can't say that I haven't felt the same, but...at the same time...I have to recognize that this kind of shelter isn't always a bad thing; for a time, all of the things you mentioned were -very- helpful to me to help protect me...albeit haphazardly...from a very destructive home life.
Does the Church need a reality check? Ooooh yes! However, we have to be willing to submit to what -God's- will is for these things, and not merely get carried away with our own insensed feelings.
Posted by china_lizard | Posted at 10/23/2007 10:48 AMWell, I'm not sure, but the way I understood the argument was that there is no secular. But sacred and Holy are very real things. My stance is against deeming certain "secular" things unclean just because. That is legalism and it is actually something we are told not to do in the book of Colossians. My main problem with this Christian subculture is the fact that we turn inwardly, and shun a world in need. They need us. My main issue is with Christian bands that say "well I'm more comfortable over here with the people who agree with me". That's good and all, but we aren't supposed to be comfortable, we're supposed to be obedient. People don't usually look to the church, see it turning inwardly and being almost like some kind of club, and think "wow cool, sign me up!" We are not called to judge, but to love. We definitely aren't supposed to close into a tight circle and make ourselves numb to the real world. We need to pray for God to open our eyes, and help us see what He does when He looks at people. Otherwise we set ourselves up to fall. So we should love people and serve in the way that Jesus did when He ministered when He was on the earth. He yelled at the proud religious leaders, but when do you ever hear Him shouting at the "sinners"? If you expect anyone to want to hear about Jesus, you need to be authentic. Show them Jesus through acts of love, a "holy roller" t-shirt that says something like "Jesus Christ, the original" that looks like he coca-cola logo is lame. It's not being a light to the world. Acts of kindness, love, mercy, generosity, that will catch people's attention, not stupid "christian crap" like the aforementioned t-shirt example. Holy exists. Worldly exists. But having our own like club that turns inwardly is not a good thing. It cripples us, weakens us, and hardens our hearts to the suffering of our fellow human beings.
God bless
Posted by Bryant | Posted at 10/23/2007 7:18 PMWhat is frightening is the venacular with which you want to destroy that said subculture.....LISTEN TO YOURSELF.....seen any slasher flicks lately? Played DOOM or some other horrible carnage "game" that actually brainwashes one to see slayings as quite normal. Compared to how you are seething to lay waste to some scripture breath mints, I'd say.....you scare me sir. I'll take the breath mints over your rant!! Bet your daily activity includes gaming of some sort and a wide variety of pulp fiction kind of films. Hopefully you are porn free!! Posted by shocked one | Posted at 10/23/2007 7:20 PM
When I say that there is no "Sacred" or "Secular" division in the actual world, I am not denying that God is Holy. Of course He is, and only He is Holy. T-shirts are not Holy. Gum is not Holy, even if you put a cross on it.
What I most object to is the idea that we have the ability to declare something as being "Sacred" when it is only the artificial reality we have created in our little subculture.
In Matthew 7:6 when Jesus Himself told us 'not to give dogs to give dogs what is sacred…' he is not arguing for a division between "Sacred" and "Secular" in our reality.
The text actually says, "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
Let's be very clear: I don't argue that there is nothing "Holy" in my article, instead I argue against a man-made subculture that identifies certain styles of music, art, clothing, media, etc. as being "Holy" when only God is Holy. I believe that when we market the Gospel and Christianize beer ads, etc. we're breaking this command of Jesus in Matthew 7:6.
What Jesus is urging us to do in this passage is not to cheapen what is Holy. How does your Lord's Gymn t-shirt accomplish this?
This passage could be paraphrased as: "Do not persist in offering what is Holy or of value to those who have no appreciation for it, because your gift will not only become contaminated and be despised, your generous efforts could also be rebuffed and perhaps even openly attacked."
Welcome to the Christian Subculture.
Keith Giles http://www.keithgiles.com
Posted by Keith Giles | Posted at 10/24/2007 8:45 AMI would say I wrestle with the same tension. And it's interesting that you mention the Berlin Wall, as I am currently living in this city, learning the culture, language, and completely immersing myself in the history of this country in order to understand and love my teammates and those my life becomes the face of Christ to daily. What is even more intriguing is that this very wall was intended to keep people enslaved on the east side from reaching freedom on the west side. Those doing the enslaving feared freedom, and so anyone attempting to cross the wall, would be shot. Yet people from the east WANTED to be free, and would risk their very life to attain this freedom, and those on the west, welcomed them with open arms.
Too often in our Christian "world" we put this very same wall up, separating the things we "fear" (even though we are FREE) from our own self-righteous "good." And in constructing our own "wall", instead of people seeing our actual freedom in Christ and desiring that for themselves, we actually repel them! So far, I have not met too many people passionate about hopping the "Christian" wall, because for them, it does not symbolize freedom, but slavery.
Posted by aj | Posted at 10/25/2007 3:33 AMIf God calls us to be Holy, would he ask of us something that he knew we couldn't achieve? So when you see the command to be Holy as I am Holy, what does that mean to you?
I would agree with you that the church and the christian sub-culture has turned into a corporation trying to capitilize on a product and I think that cheapens the gospel into non relevence in peoples lives. They can get better packaged products from McDonalds if all they want is a quick fix or a fancy looking product. For instance, this time of the year on Christian radio stations, they spend over 1/2 the day begging for money for their next year budget. They call it a shareathon or something, but it is just silly. Play some good music and I'll understand your dilemna, but don't recycle your top 10 songs every hour all day and beg me for money. (rant over)
At the same time, we should be clear that we can be relevant to an unsaved culture without being so "relevant" that we lose our testimony. I knew a guy that went to bars to hang with his unsaved friends and at first it was an occasional beer and now he is an alcoholic and not really a christian at all. I don't think that is what Paul meant when he spoke of being relevant.
It isn't about being afraid of sinners, but it is about understanding your limitations. I wouldn't go to a gentlemans club to try to be relevant to some vendors I work with because well first my wife would cut it off....the marriage you know. It just isn't the type of atmosphere I need to be in for my own relationship with God. You may think that is silly, but I see it all the time. Christians that think that being relevant means drinking, seeing all the newest movies, buying all the newest CD's, going places they shouldn't go.
I hope you see what I mean in all that.
Posted by Qc | Posted at 10/25/2007 7:38 AMQc: If God calls us to be Holy, would he ask of us something that he knew we couldn't achieve? So when you see the command to be Holy as I am Holy, what does that mean to you?
My answer to that is, "That's another article"! But seriously, a good question. God does ask us to do something that He knows we cannot do. Why does He do that? I compare that to my asking my two elementary-age sons to move our sofa in the den into the back yard for me. I know they are not strong enough. If their reaction is to tell me "It's too hard, we can't do that!" and walk away, I know that they are more focused on their own ability. But, if they respond by walking over to the sofa and putting their hands on it to obey me, THEN I will step over and do it myself, because I wanted to see the condition of their hearts.
Jesus said, (all the time), that if you love me you will obey me.
If Jesus prayed to God that we would not be taken out of the world, why are we taking ourselves out?
The Christian Subculture is NOT God's plan for His people. We must tear down those walls and begin to love people and bless them and serve them.
Read the New Testament and watch how Jesus models this to his disciples all through the Gospels. Read the book of Acts and watch how they followed through in this teaching/training so that "there was no needy person among them."
Jesus was radically inclusive. His followers should be too.
peas, kg
Posted by Keith Giles | Posted at 10/25/2007 8:45 AMcheck out Dick Staub's Posted by Steve Heyduck | Posted at 10/25/2007 9:00 AM
Every one of you ought to go out and get Jonah 33's latest Album "The Heart of War." It is a musical version of Giles' post. These guys are the real deal when it comes to confronting and challenging the Christian subculture. It's a war, and we should fire at will. Posted by darrell | Posted at 10/25/2007 10:19 AM
In light of your further explaination, I agree completely. Posted by Bryant | Posted at 10/25/2007 4:04 PM
I heard Randall Balmer of Barnard College recently speak of how Christianty historically thrives at the margins of society, and wavers when it attains respectability and power. I do agree. This means that our hope lies in the collapse of our respectability and institutional status- yes, that thing that we have worked so hard to attain was never the prize the Lord had for us. I do not know when or how this will happen, but it is inevitable and prophetic. Posted by Rich Earl | Posted at 10/26/2007 7:32 PM
I'm reading a book called The Intelligent Church by Steve Chalke. Near the beginning is a brilliant analogy about English geese living on farms.
In a nutshell: The geese on the farms eat from their troughs all day and get fat. In the fall, the wild geese start flying south in V shapes. The fat farm geese hear nature calling as well, and so they flap their wings and run around their pens, but they can't get off the ground. So they go back to eating. And then they end up on the table for Christmas dinner.
I've been chewing on this analogy for about a month. To be honest, I don't totally remember what Chalke's exact point was, but I think it had to do with Christians hiding in their churches, unwilling (and eventually unable) to make a difference in the world. I think Keith's article makes a similar point, but it seems that, in his self-described anger, he would have us burn down the farms themselves and kill the farmers. I think what people need is to be made aware that the gates to the pens are actually open, and that we need to go searching for God out in the wild, rather than simply being spoon-fed spirituality by our pastors every week without wrestling with deep things on our own. It's fine to gather in the pen and eat together from the trough, but it's debilitating to hide there.
Christian sub-culture will never "die." There is nothing wrong with providing Christians with comforts and alternatives to secular norms that make life a little more fun or safe in one sense or another. The problem is when people lose their sense of mission, and when that happens, it's not the fault of Christian radio or t-shirts.
Christians should be radically inclusive. And I agree that short-sighted Church-ianity, isolated and steeped in its own conceit, is tragic and problematic and should be addressed. But I doubt Jesus would take this fist-shaking, finger-pointing approach. His hands heal and embrace and invite. That's what we should do.
Posted by Nick | Posted at 10/26/2007 9:01 PM"The Christian Subculture is essentially a wall that we build to keep ourselves from the world. Like the Berlin Wall, or the Great Wall of China, or Hadrian's Wall, or the wall between Palestine and Israel, it is an artificial border designed by us, the supposed followers of Jesus, in order to isolate us from the ones we are commanded to love... Jesus would want us to smash down that wall. "
Like I've aways said, The drywalls in Jesus' house were meant to be broken down, not for our personal privacy. I think His original plan for His children's home was an open, airy, loft concept.
Good article Keith. Keep it up. 'Seph
Posted by 'Seph | Posted at 10/29/2007 2:57 PM