I like the idea. But as someone coming from a charismatic background myself looking back I find that there was much talk about unmediated spiritual experience but most experiences were thoroughly mediated by worship music, anointed preachers and so on. And many visions and prophetic words were mediated by my experiences and the language or symbols that I have learned from others.
I do believe that deep experiences of God's presence and his spirit are possible. But in a way they are never unmediated and this is precisely the reason why the need to be tested and reflected upon in the christian community.
You are correct that even in Pentecostal circles there are attempts to mediate the move of the Spirit, and the speaking of God's voice to individuals. The problem of control and fear among leadership is still found in anabaptist, and charismatic traditions despite what we say about our belief in the unmediated work of God.
Of course he will work unmediated, but it is a task of the church to recognize that God works in this manner, and to make a place for God to move in that way, instead of opposing the unmediated voice.
I certainly hope so. I agree with you. But having come from a background with some deep roots in the Charismatic and Anabaptist traditions, it is of little surprise. I think more effort should be spent diving into God's spirit as opposed to looking through tradition, but I am also learning to value my forefathers and not be so much of an iconoclast.
M Joshman,
The iconoclast I am also. I am not sure that ever want to lose that edge, but I certainly want to be able to divine between the idols and true acts of worship and wonder. I am not sure that our traditions have always done that well, though I would not trade my Pentecostal/Anabaptist leanings for any other worldview.
Great article, I agree with you, I think you nailed it. Thomas Aquinas said, " the thing known is in the knower according to the mode of the knower". This is in reference to the way the Holy Spirit reveals Himself and the distinctions of the kingdom as He is made manifest to each of us who believe. So what if its an icon, or a worship experience as ong as we are drawing near to Him. Good stuff!
~J
Do you have a photo of your Parents? Family? Friends? Are these people Believers? Have they gone before you into that "great cloud of witnesses" to be part of the Church Triumphant? Do these photos remind you of stories/memories of them? Their faithfulness, their witness, their lives? This is what icons do for me. I look at an icon and I am reminded of the life, the witness, the words, the true truths embodied in the image before me. As the Golden Arches is represented of a secular corporate enterprise (for weal or for woe), so does an icon of the Logos represent the Final Word, the Alpha and the Omega, the living Christ.
Hey Evans123,
Thanks for the Thomistic attachment to this issue. And thanks for the kudos bro. Big piles of grace on you.
Phil
L.Short,
I don't really attach my faith to photos in that manner. It is not because I have a problem with it, but probably because it is not the way I am wired. Raised as a Christian Scientist before I became a Christian - maybe that's part of the equation.
I don't have a problem with iconographic identification of faith being a dynamic of true followers of Christ either. I simply have outlined an ingredient of tension in Emergent/Pentecostal interaction, which has a potential of raising its head. I personally don't have that struggle, but others may, and that is all I am pointing out.
May God bless you richly in your every pursuit of Him.
Phil, as you know I have extensively explored the interaction between icons, meditation and emergent thinking over at http://mattstone.blogs.com.au and there are two things I would like to throw into the discussion here.
Firstly, iconoclasm and icon veneration represent polar extremes and there is a substantial space in between that remains relatively unexplored.
Secondly, I would challenge the assetion that Pentecostal worship is unmediated worship and invite you to consider the role music plays in Pentecostal worship. It is used as a worship aid, indeed heavily. Music is no less a mediator, it is just one that is more in harmony with inococlastic sensibilities. Now the question lurking here is, can music become an idol too? Is that not what the song "Heart of Worship" was all about?
I think one of the issues being explored by emergents is whether contemporary Christianity has focussed too singularly on one sense, hearing, to the exclusion of all others and whether we can invisiage alternative approaches. Any shift towards a more multisensory approach is going to, by definition, mean a de-emphasis on music in comparison to contemporary trends.
I have two icons in my home. Not to venerate them, but because I like the art form. I know a family, though, an Orthodox family, that have icons all over their home for the practice of veneration. For them, it is absolutely a point of contact in connecting to God. I would never call it idolatry in the way they allow art to inspire them towards a meaningful connection to God.
Oh, and I have to say: mystical is my new favorite word. I am reading a book right now where the author relies heavily on the word. And now, here it is, showing up in your article. I have a total crush on this word. Maybe I'll tattoo it on my wrist. :-) Or I can make into a piece of art and hang it in my home next to one of my icons. lol
Matt Bro,
I somewhat agree with you in respect to Pentecostal worship - at least as we know it today, but the initiation of the movement in the early 1900s did not have the same focus upon worship music, which has become the mainstay, not so much of Pentecostal worship, but of Charismatic worship today. Many of the first Pentecostal expressions appear to have been more akin to Quaker free meetings with an emphasis upon waiting on God. It is this early emphasis which I believe is a practice worth revisiting. Worship as we know it today was driven by groups like Calvary Chapel - which has moved away from its original Pentecostal connections.
As far as the sense of hearing being emphasized to the exclusion of other senses: The reference to the word "hear" as a medium of experiencing God has a deeper meaning than that of our aural senses, and it may be worth discovering what we mean by "hearing God" and the many "voices" or expressions that comes in. Of course, this may simply be a matter of semantics, and not a difference of theological consideration between us.
Further gist for the mill. One the things I have been thinking through in my exploration of Christian art is the theological relationship between incarnation and aesthetics.
Evangelicals have traditionally emphasized goodness and truth but said relatively little, at least in a positive way, about beauty. Have we in some sense betcome too fixated on "the word" and not given enough attention to "the Word" behind the word, that is, "the Word made flesh"? Has this not in turn subtly encouraged verbosity (much talk and much singing) and left us with insufficient resources to cope with silence (meditation) and symbolism (art and ritual)?
It is worth noting at this point that, even moreso than Catholics, the Orthodox link icon use to incarnational theology, and as a consequence, are far more reluctant to depict the Father in art than the Son. So again, exploring the middle ground may involve rejecting Father art in line with the second commandment but tentatively embracing Son art within certain guidelines.
Looking back at Pentecostal worship, might one way forward for emergents to re-examine the tradition in light of incarnational and aesthetic theology? This may necessitate rejection of certain "excesses" but the imbrace of what is best about the tradition? Some of the posts I am working on at the moment explore the relationship between social justice and religious revival. In light of this conversation I am wondering if my next project should not be to examine the interface between beauty, craftsmanship and Spiritual gifts.
Phil, missed your last comment as we were posting simultaneously. In Orthodox tradition Icons are "written" in a prayerful attitude. Could be some interesting ground to explore there in terms of "listening" of God in the artistic creation and art appreciation process. One avenue I have explored previously on the blog is Christian haiku writing flowing out of Christian meditation. Consideration of beauty, writing and the movement of the Spirit coming together in an attitude of listening.
By the way, have you heard of "soaking prayer"? Just wondering if that has any bearing on the discussion. Had a Charismatic friend who went to a "soaking centre" once. Seems to be a more contemplative form of Charismatic worship. Not sure how kosher it is, don't know enough yet, but it sounds like an area of overlap between Charismatic and Contemplative Christianity. Don't know if Emergents would go for it but would welcome hearing from others on this.
hey matt, i'm totally familiar with the charismatic practice of "soaking prayer," which you have rightly defined as contemplative prayer. The community I traveled would encourage people to get comfortable and quiet down, preferably with a bible and journal within close reach. Quiet worship music was played and even though we were gathered together, we did not pray together. Sometimes the pastor would cruise the room and gently approach people and pray over them, usually in a prophetic kind of way. Mostly it was about connecting to God privately, heightening an awareness of his presence and quieting of the mind to listen for his voice. Sometimes a bible passage would be recited to the group. Mostly people would get inspired in the privacy of their quietness to read and journal. It was very meaningful for me whenever I participated. I was prone to get dozey or trail off if I was tired and it was in the evening. It was meaningful just the same.........hope this helps!
Hey Pam,
Going back to your first post. "Mystical" - oh yeah. A great word. I've often used it to describe my Christianity to those outside my faith - oh, okay occasionally to those inside my faith who I want to rankle or challenge - mostly rankle maybe?
Matt,
I know the guys who run the soaking tent at the Burning Man Festival - now that's my idea of totally cool. I see nothing wrong with the basic concept - it has been prone to silliness, but what isn't?
We will be opening our church up to the community on weekday afternoons at lunch to create something similar. We call it simply Sacred Space: The Place to Find the Rest of Your Mind. It will include meditative music (chants and Celtic stuff), an occasional reading, and papers with prayers people can utilize if they so desire. We're not sure how this will work, but we believe that a positive godly meditative space could transform a community, and we will give a college try. This is probably an evangelistic version of soaking prayer.
Hey Phil! I love the way you bring out the beautiful Jesus-ishness in all the traditions you discuss here. I think that's a real strength of yours - to see the beauty in many different ways of being spiritual, and to deeply respect each person.
Pam, we're really looking forward to you staying with us next week! There's a great tattoo artist in our neighbourhood who could tattoo 'mystical' onto your wrist if you like!!
Cheers, Meg PS Dalai Lama AND Brian D McLaren tomorrow!
Great essay Phil. Thank you for taking the time to bring some shape to issues that are very very difficult to articulate. For me anyway.
I dont know where the line is between mystical experience and the 'power icons' of this world: The physical symbol of The Christian Cross/ The US Flag/ Fiat Currency. These are tools that have been used ( mis-used ) throughout history. They have been used to justify war, and opress civil dissent in favor of conforminty to social norms. Observe that those in power will always seek to associate their agendas with The Cross, Virgin Mary, The Flag.
We may be sincere in the symbols that we love, but the reality is that in this present physical and greatlly fallen world, the more powerful/loved the paticular symbol, the more widely accepted as good, the more it will attract corrupt ambitious men. That's the lesson that history should teach us about the institutionization of icons for religious purposes. But we seem to have never learned this.
Thanks for writing this Phil
Phil, you will definitely have to let me know how the event goes.
Back to the issue of Emergent/Pentecostal dialogue, I thought about this some more and one of the things that i feel is important for mutual understanding, at least from my end, is recognition from iconoclasts that idolatry can take many forms and that idolatry of words is one of these.
I have on many occasions been disturbed, when praying with Pentecostals, on the emphasis placed on power words or catchphrases, as if the words themselves had talismanic power. I realize I am talking about more extreme cases here of course. But moving on we could also talk about idolatry of "the word" (otherwise known as Bibliolatry) and idolatry of "the house" of God. Anything can become an idol, the process is insidious.
I recognize the potential for idolatry with icons, I just get very wary when they are focussed on as if they're the practice where idolatry has the greatest potential to emerge, for I don't think it is. I respect why iconoclasts are wary, for there have been abuses, but in what tradition have there not been? To be honest I think the idols we are most at risk of bowing down to - all of us - are Market Forces, Self Preservation and Personal Gratification. I am sure you could link a few more traditional god and goddess names to those beauties! If only more attention were given to them in Christianity today.
It there is one thing I agree on here its that you've identified an important issue for Pentecostal/Emergent dialogue.
Just to return to your comment about music being the mainstay of Charismatic worship more than Pentecostal worship: here is where cross-Pacific issues become important, because that is not true here.
The dominant Pentecostal denomination in Oz is AOG and the dominant force within Oz AOG is Hillsong. And when I say dominant I should really put that in capitals. For us Hillsong IS Pentecostalism. Our only other yardstick is American Religious TV at 2am in the morning. And if there was any mistaking the importance of music for Hillsong we only have to look at their name. In contrast our Charismatics are a rather muted bunch, hanging out in Anglican, Catholic and Baptist churches as they do. And they are largely dependent on Hillsong too. So to say Pentecostalism doesn't emphasize music is as foreign to us as saying Catholicism doesn't emphasize communion. We have no experience of the sort of listening Pentecostalism you're alluding to here. You'd have to send me a YouTube vid. No local tradition of that sort to draw on. This soaking centre I spoke of here is so new and so underground its only mavins like me who have even heard of it. Then again, few outside of the colleges have heard of the emerging church here either. :-)
I have to say that I am very happy that the Charismatic traditions are starting to look to the past. My high school experience was among Charismatic Baptists in South Africa, and I'll be honest in opinion that there is good and bad in the Charismatic movement. One thing that always bugged me was the closed-mindedness toward anything not either from the Charismatic tradition, or even worse, not new. This of course can't be said for all Charismatics, and in my opinion most Evangelicals in general are guilty of the same thing. During college I started reading voraciously about Christian mysticism - medieval and modern - and starting practicing Centering Prayer. While I'm not attached exclusively to the Fr. Keating variety, I have to say that discovering the ancient traditions of Christianity is really what kept me a Christian. Orthodoxy in particular has been a huge influence on me. I find the previous conversations about icons particularly interesting; I personally use icons the same way Orthodox use them. Maybe I'm just weird, but icons, the Jesus Prayer, and other ancient Christian practices have provided me with a foundation that I simply never received as a Protestant evangelical. No, I'm not Catholic or Orthodox. But I would enthusiastically encourage anyone reading this to read further before making up your mind about these topics. "On the Divine Images" by St. John of Damascus is a good place to start on icons. "The Way of a Pilgrim" is the essential book about the Jesus Prayer. These are just starting places. So much has gone before us, we need to be careful to realize that our own experiences don't occur in a vacuum. We need the help of the Cloud of Witnesses who struggled and cleared the path for us.
Pastor Phil!!!
I miss you on the boards...I truly enjoyed the beyond the pall series and discussion.
Thanks for bringing this about. I think we must do all things in moderation, I personally believe that walking in the Spirit is being balanced in all things. I don't see an issue with using iconography to remind us of prayers, blessings, etc. One of my favorite prayers is the prayer attributed to St. Frances of Assisi. In that same respect, there isn't anything like being quiet before the Lord for renewed peace of mind (and your idea sounds AWESOME!).
Hopefully, by you pointing it out, we, in all aspects of Christianity, can be tolerant and respectful of each other, and how we wish to worship.
Take care, bro!
Daniel M,
I am glad that there are groups here and there looking at the past as well. I hope it become more common, but the nature of Pentecostalism is that it is a revivalist religion. It looks to the past in a critical manner (of course this is often warranted), and then seeks to bring correction, reformation, or complete "new thing." I do not believe that this tendency should be forgotten, but perhaps tempered.
Charismatic renewal does not carry the same radical sense of revivalism, because they were birthed out of the traditional church movements, and though it carried a sense of renewal it was renewal of something already there, and not necessarily the radical nature of starting a "new thing."
I do think that balance is in the winds, but this will appear quite radical to many methinks.
Hi Ann,
Gee, thanks for the kudos. Keep your Franciscan leanings alive. His model is a powerful one for all generations.
who are these emergent pentecostals, and how are they using these icons of which you speak?
Hey Chas,
Me, and I am not sure how I plan on using them. I am not uncomfortable with them, but not drawn toward them either. That's the point of the article - there is a tension, and many Pentecostal Emergents might not be as comfortable with them as other traditions.
Some of the others have responded to this post, and answered that question. There are a few of us out there. Check out this link: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2008/04/01/stepping-into-the-wind-a-pentecost-inspired-writing-competition/
I've been wrestling through this issue quite a bit, seeing the church I am on staff at was a mainline church that went through the charismatic renewal in the 80's while incorporating the contemplative stream. I am definitely looking at the whole charismatic world from the outside. The language doesn't say anything to me, the worldview behind it, the overly emotional nature of it and the limits it imposes on formation and spiritual growth by making everything so spiritual it hardly exists in everyday life doesn't appeal to me. I agree, I don't see too many in-roads between it and the emerging church. I hate to say it this way, and I mean no personal disrespect - but the charismatic renewal seems dated and I think it has run its course. I believe it was much needed at the time to awaken the mainline western church, but it seems to produce Christians who can't comprehend the Spirit working in quieter, more subtle ways. That's not to say I don't believe in Holy Spirit ministry, but "Holy Spirit ministry" can transpire just as easily outside of charismatic circles as within it. I guess it seems to me that my charismatic friends seem to think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit and I believe that really stunts their growth and understanding of the mystery of God. Don't get me wrong - I believe in estatic spiritual experiences and experience them frequently (out in nature, or in silence, etc) but I don't see the connection with charismatics having a larger slice of that pie than anyone else. The Spirit is like the wind. We can't control Him or evoke Him with magic little catchphrases or shouts rather than whispers. Anyway, that's how I see it from the outside, and as an emerging Christian myself, I very rarely read or hear anything from the charismatic world that resonates much with my journey. No disrespect intended, just an honest viewpoint...
Derek,
I understand where you are coming from, but as someone who has pastored in Pentecostal circles for over 20 years, I tend to to think that it is not Charismatics as a whole, but the Charismatics you know that might be the problem. Of course, there is also the potential that a few have jaded your overall experience. Yet, I also must admit that within some Charismatic circles there appears to be a larger percentage of shallow than can be found in most of Christianity.
You might as well become Catholics. They would be the first to tell you that they don't worship idols. Witchcraft also utilizes the icon for focusing. They also in general don't worship the icon. Ask yourself were icons necessary for those who were with Jesus our Lord during His ministry? When he ascended to heaven, did the Apostles have a need of icons? Please don't use communion as an example. Rationalizing the use of icons for a higher purpose changes nothing of its use. Paganism comes in many forms and was incorporated into the early church to the point of believing that it actually has roots in Christianity. Christmas is probably the easiest example of this. If He is in us and we in Him or what need do we have of icons?
Hi Nick,
I am not sure if the question for some of us who struggle with icons is "is it necessary?" I think perhaps we need to ask ourselves if it is necessary to condemn a non-worshiping focus upon art for the sake of adoring God. What do you think?
Hello Phil, It seems that icon as being used here is not being treated not as "non-worshiping focus", but as you stated earlier a "ritual worship art". Therein the condemnation.
Nick,
I am not sure that there is a significant difference between what you call non-worshiping focus and ritual worship art. Focus is a meditative activity as ritual is. If you distinguish between the two you might be drawing a line too tightly and leaning toward legalism. Worship is an activity of the heart - not necessarily measured by observation.
Phil, As a point of reference. I used the "non-worshiping focus" and "ritual worship art" as representative of what you've discussed previously. Ritual does not require a meditative activity only an object pattern for a previously established action. Sadly, Israel and Catholicism achieved this without much assistance as they slowly distanced themselves from the Word of God. Whereas focus is the action which requires an object of attention to serve a desired purpose. How important is the object of your attention that requires an "icon" as a facilitator? Facilitator might be the wrong word, but the use of an icon is still the same. I would however, agree with your statement that “worship is an activity of the heart - not necessarily measured by observation”, but for myself, I would also include my spirit that yearns for my Creator.
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I like the idea. But as someone coming from a charismatic background myself looking back I find that there was much talk about unmediated spiritual experience but most experiences were thoroughly mediated by worship music, anointed preachers and so on. And many visions and prophetic words were mediated by my experiences and the language or symbols that I have learned from others.
I do believe that deep experiences of God's presence and his spirit are possible. But in a way they are never unmediated and this is precisely the reason why the need to be tested and reflected upon in the christian community.
Posted by Peter Aschoff | Posted at 04/08/2008 4:20 AMYou are correct that even in Pentecostal circles there are attempts to mediate the move of the Spirit, and the speaking of God's voice to individuals. The problem of control and fear among leadership is still found in anabaptist, and charismatic traditions despite what we say about our belief in the unmediated work of God.
Of course he will work unmediated, but it is a task of the church to recognize that God works in this manner, and to make a place for God to move in that way, instead of opposing the unmediated voice.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/08/2008 12:50 PMI certainly hope so. I agree with you. But having come from a background with some deep roots in the Charismatic and Anabaptist traditions, it is of little surprise. I think more effort should be spent diving into God's spirit as opposed to looking through tradition, but I am also learning to value my forefathers and not be so much of an iconoclast. Posted by M.joshua | Posted at 04/08/2008 2:02 PM
M Joshman,
The iconoclast I am also. I am not sure that ever want to lose that edge, but I certainly want to be able to divine between the idols and true acts of worship and wonder. I am not sure that our traditions have always done that well, though I would not trade my Pentecostal/Anabaptist leanings for any other worldview.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/08/2008 6:31 PMGreat article, I agree with you, I think you nailed it. Thomas Aquinas said, " the thing known is in the knower according to the mode of the knower". This is in reference to the way the Holy Spirit reveals Himself and the distinctions of the kingdom as He is made manifest to each of us who believe. So what if its an icon, or a worship experience as ong as we are drawing near to Him. Good stuff!
~J
Posted by evans1234 | Posted at 04/09/2008 3:16 PMDo you have a photo of your Parents? Family? Friends? Are these people Believers? Have they gone before you into that "great cloud of witnesses" to be part of the Church Triumphant? Do these photos remind you of stories/memories of them? Their faithfulness, their witness, their lives? This is what icons do for me. I look at an icon and I am reminded of the life, the witness, the words, the true truths embodied in the image before me. As the Golden Arches is represented of a secular corporate enterprise (for weal or for woe), so does an icon of the Logos represent the Final Word, the Alpha and the Omega, the living Christ. Posted by L.Short | Posted at 04/10/2008 1:36 PM
Hey Evans123,
Thanks for the Thomistic attachment to this issue. And thanks for the kudos bro. Big piles of grace on you.
Phil
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/10/2008 1:54 PML.Short,
I don't really attach my faith to photos in that manner. It is not because I have a problem with it, but probably because it is not the way I am wired. Raised as a Christian Scientist before I became a Christian - maybe that's part of the equation.
I don't have a problem with iconographic identification of faith being a dynamic of true followers of Christ either. I simply have outlined an ingredient of tension in Emergent/Pentecostal interaction, which has a potential of raising its head. I personally don't have that struggle, but others may, and that is all I am pointing out.
May God bless you richly in your every pursuit of Him.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/10/2008 1:59 PMPhil, as you know I have extensively explored the interaction between icons, meditation and emergent thinking over at http://mattstone.blogs.com.au and there are two things I would like to throw into the discussion here.
Firstly, iconoclasm and icon veneration represent polar extremes and there is a substantial space in between that remains relatively unexplored.
Secondly, I would challenge the assetion that Pentecostal worship is unmediated worship and invite you to consider the role music plays in Pentecostal worship. It is used as a worship aid, indeed heavily. Music is no less a mediator, it is just one that is more in harmony with inococlastic sensibilities. Now the question lurking here is, can music become an idol too? Is that not what the song "Heart of Worship" was all about?
I think one of the issues being explored by emergents is whether contemporary Christianity has focussed too singularly on one sense, hearing, to the exclusion of all others and whether we can invisiage alternative approaches. Any shift towards a more multisensory approach is going to, by definition, mean a de-emphasis on music in comparison to contemporary trends.
Posted by Matt Stone | Posted at 04/10/2008 4:01 PMI have two icons in my home. Not to venerate them, but because I like the art form. I know a family, though, an Orthodox family, that have icons all over their home for the practice of veneration. For them, it is absolutely a point of contact in connecting to God. I would never call it idolatry in the way they allow art to inspire them towards a meaningful connection to God.
Oh, and I have to say: mystical is my new favorite word. I am reading a book right now where the author relies heavily on the word. And now, here it is, showing up in your article. I have a total crush on this word. Maybe I'll tattoo it on my wrist. :-) Or I can make into a piece of art and hang it in my home next to one of my icons. lol
Posted by Pam Hogeweide | Posted at 04/10/2008 4:23 PMMatt Bro,
I somewhat agree with you in respect to Pentecostal worship - at least as we know it today, but the initiation of the movement in the early 1900s did not have the same focus upon worship music, which has become the mainstay, not so much of Pentecostal worship, but of Charismatic worship today. Many of the first Pentecostal expressions appear to have been more akin to Quaker free meetings with an emphasis upon waiting on God. It is this early emphasis which I believe is a practice worth revisiting. Worship as we know it today was driven by groups like Calvary Chapel - which has moved away from its original Pentecostal connections.
As far as the sense of hearing being emphasized to the exclusion of other senses: The reference to the word "hear" as a medium of experiencing God has a deeper meaning than that of our aural senses, and it may be worth discovering what we mean by "hearing God" and the many "voices" or expressions that comes in. Of course, this may simply be a matter of semantics, and not a difference of theological consideration between us.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/10/2008 5:03 PMFurther gist for the mill. One the things I have been thinking through in my exploration of Christian art is the theological relationship between incarnation and aesthetics.
Evangelicals have traditionally emphasized goodness and truth but said relatively little, at least in a positive way, about beauty. Have we in some sense betcome too fixated on "the word" and not given enough attention to "the Word" behind the word, that is, "the Word made flesh"? Has this not in turn subtly encouraged verbosity (much talk and much singing) and left us with insufficient resources to cope with silence (meditation) and symbolism (art and ritual)?
It is worth noting at this point that, even moreso than Catholics, the Orthodox link icon use to incarnational theology, and as a consequence, are far more reluctant to depict the Father in art than the Son. So again, exploring the middle ground may involve rejecting Father art in line with the second commandment but tentatively embracing Son art within certain guidelines.
Looking back at Pentecostal worship, might one way forward for emergents to re-examine the tradition in light of incarnational and aesthetic theology? This may necessitate rejection of certain "excesses" but the imbrace of what is best about the tradition? Some of the posts I am working on at the moment explore the relationship between social justice and religious revival. In light of this conversation I am wondering if my next project should not be to examine the interface between beauty, craftsmanship and Spiritual gifts.
Posted by Matt Stone | Posted at 04/10/2008 5:15 PMPhil, missed your last comment as we were posting simultaneously. In Orthodox tradition Icons are "written" in a prayerful attitude. Could be some interesting ground to explore there in terms of "listening" of God in the artistic creation and art appreciation process. One avenue I have explored previously on the blog is Christian haiku writing flowing out of Christian meditation. Consideration of beauty, writing and the movement of the Spirit coming together in an attitude of listening. Posted by Matt Stone | Posted at 04/10/2008 5:20 PM
By the way, have you heard of "soaking prayer"? Just wondering if that has any bearing on the discussion. Had a Charismatic friend who went to a "soaking centre" once. Seems to be a more contemplative form of Charismatic worship. Not sure how kosher it is, don't know enough yet, but it sounds like an area of overlap between Charismatic and Contemplative Christianity. Don't know if Emergents would go for it but would welcome hearing from others on this. Posted by Matt Stone | Posted at 04/10/2008 5:31 PM
hey matt, i'm totally familiar with the charismatic practice of "soaking prayer," which you have rightly defined as contemplative prayer. The community I traveled would encourage people to get comfortable and quiet down, preferably with a bible and journal within close reach. Quiet worship music was played and even though we were gathered together, we did not pray together. Sometimes the pastor would cruise the room and gently approach people and pray over them, usually in a prophetic kind of way. Mostly it was about connecting to God privately, heightening an awareness of his presence and quieting of the mind to listen for his voice. Sometimes a bible passage would be recited to the group. Mostly people would get inspired in the privacy of their quietness to read and journal. It was very meaningful for me whenever I participated. I was prone to get dozey or trail off if I was tired and it was in the evening. It was meaningful just the same.........hope this helps! Posted by Pam Hogeweide | Posted at 04/10/2008 5:37 PM
Hey Pam,
Going back to your first post. "Mystical" - oh yeah. A great word. I've often used it to describe my Christianity to those outside my faith - oh, okay occasionally to those inside my faith who I want to rankle or challenge - mostly rankle maybe?
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/10/2008 7:48 PMMatt,
I know the guys who run the soaking tent at the Burning Man Festival - now that's my idea of totally cool. I see nothing wrong with the basic concept - it has been prone to silliness, but what isn't?
We will be opening our church up to the community on weekday afternoons at lunch to create something similar. We call it simply Sacred Space: The Place to Find the Rest of Your Mind. It will include meditative music (chants and Celtic stuff), an occasional reading, and papers with prayers people can utilize if they so desire. We're not sure how this will work, but we believe that a positive godly meditative space could transform a community, and we will give a college try. This is probably an evangelistic version of soaking prayer.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/10/2008 7:58 PMHey Phil! I love the way you bring out the beautiful Jesus-ishness in all the traditions you discuss here. I think that's a real strength of yours - to see the beauty in many different ways of being spiritual, and to deeply respect each person.
Pam, we're really looking forward to you staying with us next week! There's a great tattoo artist in our neighbourhood who could tattoo 'mystical' onto your wrist if you like!!
Cheers, Meg PS Dalai Lama AND Brian D McLaren tomorrow!
Posted by Meg | Posted at 04/10/2008 9:50 PMGreat essay Phil. Thank you for taking the time to bring some shape to issues that are very very difficult to articulate. For me anyway.
I dont know where the line is between mystical experience and the 'power icons' of this world: The physical symbol of The Christian Cross/ The US Flag/ Fiat Currency. These are tools that have been used ( mis-used ) throughout history. They have been used to justify war, and opress civil dissent in favor of conforminty to social norms. Observe that those in power will always seek to associate their agendas with The Cross, Virgin Mary, The Flag.
We may be sincere in the symbols that we love, but the reality is that in this present physical and greatlly fallen world, the more powerful/loved the paticular symbol, the more widely accepted as good, the more it will attract corrupt ambitious men. That's the lesson that history should teach us about the institutionization of icons for religious purposes. But we seem to have never learned this.
Thanks for writing this Phil
Posted by LASZLO AKA "Just A Tourist" | Posted at 04/11/2008 5:49 AMPhil, you will definitely have to let me know how the event goes.
Back to the issue of Emergent/Pentecostal dialogue, I thought about this some more and one of the things that i feel is important for mutual understanding, at least from my end, is recognition from iconoclasts that idolatry can take many forms and that idolatry of words is one of these.
I have on many occasions been disturbed, when praying with Pentecostals, on the emphasis placed on power words or catchphrases, as if the words themselves had talismanic power. I realize I am talking about more extreme cases here of course. But moving on we could also talk about idolatry of "the word" (otherwise known as Bibliolatry) and idolatry of "the house" of God. Anything can become an idol, the process is insidious.
I recognize the potential for idolatry with icons, I just get very wary when they are focussed on as if they're the practice where idolatry has the greatest potential to emerge, for I don't think it is. I respect why iconoclasts are wary, for there have been abuses, but in what tradition have there not been? To be honest I think the idols we are most at risk of bowing down to - all of us - are Market Forces, Self Preservation and Personal Gratification. I am sure you could link a few more traditional god and goddess names to those beauties! If only more attention were given to them in Christianity today.
It there is one thing I agree on here its that you've identified an important issue for Pentecostal/Emergent dialogue.
Just to return to your comment about music being the mainstay of Charismatic worship more than Pentecostal worship: here is where cross-Pacific issues become important, because that is not true here.
The dominant Pentecostal denomination in Oz is AOG and the dominant force within Oz AOG is Hillsong. And when I say dominant I should really put that in capitals. For us Hillsong IS Pentecostalism. Our only other yardstick is American Religious TV at 2am in the morning. And if there was any mistaking the importance of music for Hillsong we only have to look at their name. In contrast our Charismatics are a rather muted bunch, hanging out in Anglican, Catholic and Baptist churches as they do. And they are largely dependent on Hillsong too. So to say Pentecostalism doesn't emphasize music is as foreign to us as saying Catholicism doesn't emphasize communion. We have no experience of the sort of listening Pentecostalism you're alluding to here. You'd have to send me a YouTube vid. No local tradition of that sort to draw on. This soaking centre I spoke of here is so new and so underground its only mavins like me who have even heard of it. Then again, few outside of the colleges have heard of the emerging church here either. :-)
Posted by Matt Stone | Posted at 04/11/2008 8:39 AMI have to say that I am very happy that the Charismatic traditions are starting to look to the past. My high school experience was among Charismatic Baptists in South Africa, and I'll be honest in opinion that there is good and bad in the Charismatic movement. One thing that always bugged me was the closed-mindedness toward anything not either from the Charismatic tradition, or even worse, not new. This of course can't be said for all Charismatics, and in my opinion most Evangelicals in general are guilty of the same thing. During college I started reading voraciously about Christian mysticism - medieval and modern - and starting practicing Centering Prayer. While I'm not attached exclusively to the Fr. Keating variety, I have to say that discovering the ancient traditions of Christianity is really what kept me a Christian. Orthodoxy in particular has been a huge influence on me. I find the previous conversations about icons particularly interesting; I personally use icons the same way Orthodox use them. Maybe I'm just weird, but icons, the Jesus Prayer, and other ancient Christian practices have provided me with a foundation that I simply never received as a Protestant evangelical. No, I'm not Catholic or Orthodox. But I would enthusiastically encourage anyone reading this to read further before making up your mind about these topics. "On the Divine Images" by St. John of Damascus is a good place to start on icons. "The Way of a Pilgrim" is the essential book about the Jesus Prayer. These are just starting places. So much has gone before us, we need to be careful to realize that our own experiences don't occur in a vacuum. We need the help of the Cloud of Witnesses who struggled and cleared the path for us. Posted by Daniel M | Posted at 04/11/2008 9:45 AM
Pastor Phil!!!
I miss you on the boards...I truly enjoyed the beyond the pall series and discussion.
Thanks for bringing this about. I think we must do all things in moderation, I personally believe that walking in the Spirit is being balanced in all things. I don't see an issue with using iconography to remind us of prayers, blessings, etc. One of my favorite prayers is the prayer attributed to St. Frances of Assisi. In that same respect, there isn't anything like being quiet before the Lord for renewed peace of mind (and your idea sounds AWESOME!).
Hopefully, by you pointing it out, we, in all aspects of Christianity, can be tolerant and respectful of each other, and how we wish to worship.
Take care, bro!
Posted by Ann | Posted at 04/15/2008 5:36 PMDaniel M,
I am glad that there are groups here and there looking at the past as well. I hope it become more common, but the nature of Pentecostalism is that it is a revivalist religion. It looks to the past in a critical manner (of course this is often warranted), and then seeks to bring correction, reformation, or complete "new thing." I do not believe that this tendency should be forgotten, but perhaps tempered.
Charismatic renewal does not carry the same radical sense of revivalism, because they were birthed out of the traditional church movements, and though it carried a sense of renewal it was renewal of something already there, and not necessarily the radical nature of starting a "new thing."
I do think that balance is in the winds, but this will appear quite radical to many methinks.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/16/2008 12:06 PMHi Ann,
Gee, thanks for the kudos. Keep your Franciscan leanings alive. His model is a powerful one for all generations.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/16/2008 12:09 PMwho are these emergent pentecostals, and how are they using these icons of which you speak? Posted by chas pike | Posted at 04/17/2008 11:49 AM
Hey Chas,
Me, and I am not sure how I plan on using them. I am not uncomfortable with them, but not drawn toward them either. That's the point of the article - there is a tension, and many Pentecostal Emergents might not be as comfortable with them as other traditions.
Some of the others have responded to this post, and answered that question. There are a few of us out there. Check out this link: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2008/04/01/stepping-into-the-wind-a-pentecost-inspired-writing-competition/
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/17/2008 12:19 PMI've been wrestling through this issue quite a bit, seeing the church I am on staff at was a mainline church that went through the charismatic renewal in the 80's while incorporating the contemplative stream. I am definitely looking at the whole charismatic world from the outside. The language doesn't say anything to me, the worldview behind it, the overly emotional nature of it and the limits it imposes on formation and spiritual growth by making everything so spiritual it hardly exists in everyday life doesn't appeal to me. I agree, I don't see too many in-roads between it and the emerging church. I hate to say it this way, and I mean no personal disrespect - but the charismatic renewal seems dated and I think it has run its course. I believe it was much needed at the time to awaken the mainline western church, but it seems to produce Christians who can't comprehend the Spirit working in quieter, more subtle ways. That's not to say I don't believe in Holy Spirit ministry, but "Holy Spirit ministry" can transpire just as easily outside of charismatic circles as within it. I guess it seems to me that my charismatic friends seem to think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit and I believe that really stunts their growth and understanding of the mystery of God. Don't get me wrong - I believe in estatic spiritual experiences and experience them frequently (out in nature, or in silence, etc) but I don't see the connection with charismatics having a larger slice of that pie than anyone else. The Spirit is like the wind. We can't control Him or evoke Him with magic little catchphrases or shouts rather than whispers. Anyway, that's how I see it from the outside, and as an emerging Christian myself, I very rarely read or hear anything from the charismatic world that resonates much with my journey. No disrespect intended, just an honest viewpoint... Posted by Derek | Posted at 04/18/2008 11:31 AM
Derek,
I understand where you are coming from, but as someone who has pastored in Pentecostal circles for over 20 years, I tend to to think that it is not Charismatics as a whole, but the Charismatics you know that might be the problem. Of course, there is also the potential that a few have jaded your overall experience. Yet, I also must admit that within some Charismatic circles there appears to be a larger percentage of shallow than can be found in most of Christianity.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/18/2008 11:50 AMYou might as well become Catholics. They would be the first to tell you that they don't worship idols. Witchcraft also utilizes the icon for focusing. They also in general don't worship the icon. Ask yourself were icons necessary for those who were with Jesus our Lord during His ministry? When he ascended to heaven, did the Apostles have a need of icons? Please don't use communion as an example. Rationalizing the use of icons for a higher purpose changes nothing of its use. Paganism comes in many forms and was incorporated into the early church to the point of believing that it actually has roots in Christianity. Christmas is probably the easiest example of this. If He is in us and we in Him or what need do we have of icons? Posted by Nick | Posted at 04/28/2008 4:51 PM
Hi Nick,
I am not sure if the question for some of us who struggle with icons is "is it necessary?" I think perhaps we need to ask ourselves if it is necessary to condemn a non-worshiping focus upon art for the sake of adoring God. What do you think?
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 04/28/2008 8:12 PMHello Phil, It seems that icon as being used here is not being treated not as "non-worshiping focus", but as you stated earlier a "ritual worship art". Therein the condemnation. Posted by Nick Mendez | Posted at 05/03/2008 7:59 PM
Nick,
I am not sure that there is a significant difference between what you call non-worshiping focus and ritual worship art. Focus is a meditative activity as ritual is. If you distinguish between the two you might be drawing a line too tightly and leaning toward legalism. Worship is an activity of the heart - not necessarily measured by observation.
Posted by Phil Wyman | Posted at 05/04/2008 3:00 AMPhil, As a point of reference. I used the "non-worshiping focus" and "ritual worship art" as representative of what you've discussed previously. Ritual does not require a meditative activity only an object pattern for a previously established action. Sadly, Israel and Catholicism achieved this without much assistance as they slowly distanced themselves from the Word of God. Whereas focus is the action which requires an object of attention to serve a desired purpose. How important is the object of your attention that requires an "icon" as a facilitator? Facilitator might be the wrong word, but the use of an icon is still the same. I would however, agree with your statement that “worship is an activity of the heart - not necessarily measured by observation”, but for myself, I would also include my spirit that yearns for my Creator. Posted by Nick | Posted at 05/05/2008 8:20 PM