Hi Spencer
Thanks for your thoughts. Really good and helpful stuff.
From my own perspective, it can at times be a really difficult balance to strike. I have so appreciated discovering that there are people in the Emerging Church who think similar things to what I have been thinking for some time now, but almost been too afraid to verbalise in "respectable" church circles, and also to have affirmed that it is OK to think and work through these issues.
I find it particularly difficult when hostile, vitriolic and at times palpably untrue comments are aimed at those in the EC movement, (although I accept that the same feelings can be experience by established church members) which need to be challenged and corrected, and to try and discern what is the best manner and tone with which to counter them. I have great admiration for some of you folks statesides who are having to put up with some awful things being said and written about you. I have to say for the most part I find your respnses Gracious, compassionate, forgiving and Christlike. I don't often see or hear those qualities in some of the thoughts and comments of your detractors. I also feel that some of these people might just enjoy winding people up in hope of an animated and angry response whereby the most discerning thing of all might be not to dignify the comments with any sort of response at all. The same goes for those on the EC side of things because nothing is more tempting than the chance to rattle a conservative cage or two in the hope of an emotionally charged response!
How are we meant to respond if, and this is by no means true of all critics of the Emerging Church movement, it is openly stated that we ar not part of the "One True Church" (is that decision surely up to God to make!?). My own take is to rest confident in the belief that God is just and has the ultimate say as to who truly belongs to his church. Is there a time when hospitable theological discussion almost becomes impossible?
I agree with you that we need to try and engage graciously with each other across the theological divide but surely there is also a need to be "as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves".
Finally I do hope to be a fly on the wall in heaven when a member of the "one true church" bumps into someone they were convinced was not going to be there! Even better, I may welll be the person they will bump into!
I am glad too for your article, your thoughts. Being relatively new to the reality of postmodernism, and the emergent church and even this medium for discussion (I had to take typewriting for my high school college prep curriculum!) I thot I sensed this underlying anger in alot of what I have been reading on sites like this, but thot maybe it was just my imagination. Your comments tell me that there might be something going on just under the surface of what is being written.
I commented on Scott Strissel's article "Trust Issues" and steve kay also commented on my comment, and it seemed to have a real tone of cynicism, which he admits to. It got me to thinking that it seems like, from my newbie position, maybe some of what is inderlying the emerging church movement is this distrust and anger...and I wonder if this distrust and anger at its heart is from the "beatings" some have taken at the hands of the church, and maybe even parents and teachers and profs and other authority figures in general. It's like "I don't know exactly what the church is to look like but I sure am not going to do it like them!" This is clearly articulated in some (most?) emerging church vision statements like "we are a church for people who don't like church" or some variation on that theme.
Understanding authority and submitting to authority I believe is a key element for the future, including especially the church. We will have to get this right. And I can feel the hair standing up on the back of someone's neck even as I write this. Organized church is seen as an authority and it seems like there is a rebellion against it going on that stems from distrust because of hurt.
I grew up in a conventional church and was a lay leader in another one for the past 17 years. Our church closed this past fall. Believe me when I say that I am asking God what was that all about and I don't want to do church like that ever again and there has to be more to it than what I have seen and experienced. this is why I am reading and thinking and listening. And believe me that I have taken some serious hits by people in the church and I said I don't ever have to be a part of a congregation again.
But I'm starting to think that maybe I can help change the church, help her to become all that God intends by being a part of her, by being on the inside, helping to change her at her heart first, as he continually changes me. This is what God does in individuals, right, inside out? And the church per se didn't hurt me...individuals did and I'm working on forgiving them, and hope they forgive me for when I hurt them.
Church built on anger and distrust is not on solid ground. I do think God is changing the church and the emergent way of thinking and doing is part of that. But just what is compelling us...? As long as we are identifying ourselves as being either organized church or emergent church we are divided, and in the meantime what's happening to the people in the rest of the world?
I am so sorry to anyone reading this who has been hurt by someone in the church or any authority figure in your life. I am sorry that you were made to feel like you were a piece of dirt, or had no clue what you were talking about or that you weren't worth the effort or the time. I am sorry that no one seemed to recognize the value of your insights and suggestions. I'm sorry that we were threatened by your different-ness and by your questions and doubts. I'm sorry we were too unsure ourselves to say I don't know why we do that or what that means. I'm sorry we don't behave very Christ-like sometimes. I hope you can forgive me and us.
I hope we can think, talk, plan, dream and become together the body of Christ for the sakes of all the people.
I hope love can compel us.
Hello Spencer Thank you for this article. In my opinion you nailed this issue with"once again it comes down to you and me." Human nature and it seems particularly in christian culture, we define ourselves by our differences not by the many things we have in common. But the differences are important - they are what makes you you, and me me. How we dialogue and interact is the point. I don't know about you, but for me the list of things that I've been so sure were absolutes that have crumbled into dust over the years is just starting to make an impression that perhaps my view of things isn't always the last word. The "traditional church" doesn't have exclusivity rights on being dogmatic and judgmental. I shudder at times reading or hearing comments about the church. Hospitable dialogue - I like the feel of this. We need the debate and dialogue-passionate and heated, but we need to come to a place where we can be honest and respectful at the same time- and not only within the church. In many circles, Christianity=dogmatic, closeminded, judgemental. What would it look like if after a period of time Christianity=hospitable dialogue. I think it starts at home- with us. Keep up the great work - it is appreciated.
Spence...HELP!
I'm so glad that I'm finding hospitality in the conversation on the ooze, with authors like McLaren and Wright, and with those close to me.
But I'm LOSING my hospitality. I've been arguing against fundamentalism for years now, saying that the life of Christ is MORE than head-belief and is about following. But it's getting more difficult, not easier, to keep my head-beliefs and following separate. Should they be?
At any rate, people who talk about the rapture, who prefer 'heavenly afterlife' to resurrection, who preach substitutionary atonement, and (the greatest of sins in my book) adhere to deterministic models of belief in God are driving me absolutely BATTY. It's so hard to bite my tongue and not to be 'puffed up'.
Diane - your comments brought tears to my eyes. I am one that was used then spit out by my spiritual family. I can not and will not give up on the church, but my definition of who she is and what she does is changing so rapidly that I'm experiencing vertigo.
I took vacation from the institutional church because it wasn't helping me become more like the master that I love. Has it helped? No. I am still so unlike him and so hungry for the kingdom. That hunger shouldn't cause me to hate the easy-answer types...but that is my struggle. I'm sick to death of the christian religion and starving for authentic faith...lived in the communitas of a people set apart for God.
Knowing I'm not alone just isn't as reassuring as it used to be. Pray for us.
Spencer- I think your vision for TheOoze is...inspired. I share your vision that we should strive toward hospitality. Interesting that you predict that the Fundamentalist/Neo-Con will return back to the church after being diminshed politically. Maybe so. But you seem to be saying that 'relationship' with those belivers who value non-violence/peace will transform these individuals. I wish that I could be as hopeful. I've observed that there are two camps in the christian world, those who seek relationship with god and others first, and a second group that has an adgenda to use the church as a political tool under the thin veneer of faith. We need to acknowledge and learn from the last 10 years how the latter group came to associate The Cross with violence. Being a christian has, as I see it, been re-defined as Pro-War/Anti-Muslim/Pro State Sponsored Torture/Anti-Civil Liberties. How did that happen? How was I misled to "vote christian"? How was The Gospel twisted? If we don't answer these questions first, will be doomed to witness the cycle repeat, no matter how nice we are to each other.
Just this weekend I found a Garden "plate" with the following expression on it:
"One who practices hospitality entertains God himself."
I found it so true. I can see this same idea in what you're suggesting also.
Good thoughts, Spencer.
'Seph
Hi Guys
I am in the UK where the situation is a bit different but I am struggling with these issues. i am/was the elder in a great household church that is very 'emergentish' in model but we got there by gospel informed pragmatism. Over the last 4-5yrs we have 3 basic groups starting to take some sort of shape:
People who want to go more conservative, more right wing in Christian culture and draw very tight doctrinal lines in order to, very sincerely, 'defend the faith' (Conservative Evangelical Reformed Protestantism). People who are moving 'left' towards a more holistic vision of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God, who want to draw from much broader traditions (monastic, Anabaptist etc) and be more honest?, creative and adventurous in their reading and enacting of scripture. These people have lived in tension with and sometimes fear of the former group. People who couldn't give a monkey's about all of the above and are just trying to get on in faith and life
Is has been a testing and painful joy to try and hold these groups together in a the bond of peace and to try and make space for us to continue to grow in grace together. I recently stepped down as an elder because, although i was happy to sign the pretty tight statement of faith I know full well that how i read it and its importance to me and the culture of my response would not be at ease with the loose but particular denomination that we are in. It was an integrity thing but also about protecting the body from unnecessary heart ache if my continuing role caused others to split. I am still going to do the same stuff - just lose the 'title', which is fine by me as that’s obviously not what its about.
So- we are trying to live with our diversity in the body but and one of the things all the three groups are doing is broadening the scope of how we live out who god made us. Some are bull horn preaching in the city centre, others just getting by and I and a band of fellow faith explorers (so often alot of it comes down to personality type / stage of faith don't you think) are doing 'Engage'- creating a network of people, conversations and actions for those of us in group 2 and our Christian and other friends who need the broader honest engagement with faith. This also starts to create confidence and enables us to feed the things we are learning back into the local body.
Here's the encouraging bit - we have seen some real shift in the focus of the church towards a more holistic gospel, taking seriously issues of systemic social justice, the preference for the marginal, the needs of the poor etc. It has been slow and mainly through osmosis through lives lived together rather than 'ho down shown down' debate. This has been GREAT! Also those of us who feared relationships were being ruptured by our differences (on all sides) have made it a priority to sit down in groups and be very honest with each other and to seek reconciliation. Just last week I exchanged emails of repentance for things said and not said, done and not done with an old friend who I have wrestled with over 'doctrinal' issues many times over the past few years. Again this felt GREAT and very God honouring/pleasing.
We are miles and miles and miles from perfect and i really don't know what the future will bring but surely God is big enough to handle it. The emerging sense of truth seeking freedom in tension with genuine gentleness and kindness is a wonderful reflection of the gospel itself. Hey, it might all blow up next week but at least it feels as though we are all doing all we can to live out who God is making us as individuals and as a community – and after a good few years of living in a self imposed .shell of only surface engagement with others this is a massive relief and bodes well for fruitful times to come.
I'd love to hear more about other’s experiences with these issues (and particularly with working them out with real people rather than just jousting with concepts which I am now tiring of as it rarely serves the kingdom well in my own experience) and please feel free to come and check some of us out and join the conversation over at
http://www.engagesheffield.blogspot.com/
You might like this post about a hope for real 'conversation' http://engagesheffield.blogspot.com/2008/05/this-is-beautiful-its-conversation.html
Shalom
*you say "fundamentalist" like it's a bad thing...as if it is only the fundamentalists who are intolerant. as if the average lurker couldn't tell you within a a couple of hours who the ooze bullies are. overall, the ooze has become average in that it is dominated by a Survivor-type mentality where the posters of new and unsettling ideas are berated or smothered with quick-fix answers. almost anything but hospitality for those fool-hardy enough to engage in a dialogue which could possibly lead to a furtherance of mutual, respectful understanding in the presence of disagreement. on second thought, that describes a powerful core group on the ooze. there are several thoughtful posters who do manage hospitality and manage it well. but the bullies, Spencer, i don't think that the subtlety of an article is going to work on them. just saying.
I have to admit that I am somewhat leery of anyone who *sets out* to do an "emerging" church or "church better than the way we grew up with it." Not because I think that's a bad thing, just because I'm scared as heck that it won't work and people will get hurt again! (As my dad said about church, when we first left the one that broke our hearts in many ways: "I can't think about church or theology directly right now: it's like staring at the sun. I have to look at it around the edges, in the little unexpected places." I am doing much better in that regard than I was--I actually have a church I go to that I feel happy and at home with--but I'm still looking in the margins, in the blogs and the random discussions with friends late at night. I think there must be other people like that out here, who aren't even ready for the "emerging church" yet....)
That said...this is a wonderful post. Thank you. I don't know where I'll end up...but hospitality and love and the assumption of good faith until proven otherwise are good, wonderful things. I have seen it happen that angry, hurt people started to be able to talk and listen again, rather than hiding or yelling. It's a good thing, and I hope I can keep my heart open to people I agree with *and* the ones who still piss me off. ;-)
Peace be with you.
Good, thought-provoking post and comments!
I am one who has felt in my deepest heart of hearts for many years the ideas that are now being voiced by emerging church writers and speakers. As I read and hear what they are saying I feel as if I have come home. I no longer feel alone, after feeling that way for so many years. And after keeping quiet for so many years I feel I finally have a place to express what has been only in my heart and mind for so many years. Yes, I do at times, like some others, get a bit defensive in my conversation about my struggle to figure out this whole church thing and what it means to be a follower of Christ. And for that I am sorry. Your article helped me to put it a bit more in perspective and to again remind me of the need for love and compassion for all.
I have for several years been trying to talk about the need to move away from a them ("nonChristians") and us ("Christians") mentality and to love people where they are. But I many times fail to apply that to "Emerging" and "NonEmerging" as well. God help me. Why does there always have to be a them and us? Why can't we all see ourselves as people in need of God's love and grace - always?
Thank you for theooze and the opportunity to read challenging articles and comments. May we all seek God's wisdom as we wrestle with what it means to follow God for us as individuals and as the body of Christ.
Perhaps with the same passion they lobbied the political system, those in the religious fundamentalist movement might come into the Church with a renewed sense of recapturing the "nostalgic" vision of what the "Church" is - the one that many have found wanting and have left almost completely.
It is most important to be able to determine who these "many" are that have found the Church "wanting". It seems that nearly every church out there is trying to reach those who left as teenagers or young adults. How about trying to reach out those who have walked away after many years of adult faith and devotion?
Spencer - Thank you for saying things that truly touch you. I am part of a revisioned church that discusses many issues both within the scriptures and in the outside world every Sunday and it is done in a non-hostile and non-threathening environment. This church is being nurtured by the leaders and members to maintain this safe environment for an open discussion and it is an amazing feeling when people totally disagree about something, but they actually feel safe enough to say their thoughts to the other people around them.
I believe that if you have a faith and belief system in your personal life and if that system has been the same system for the last 10, 20, 30, or how many ever years then you are not living out your faith. Your faith and beliefs have to change because everything else in your life is changing and you are now looking at your life from a different perspective now compared to 10 years or even 1 year ago. It is wonderful to grow and find that someone else may have some insight into the scriptures or life that may actually work better in my life.
Thanks again Spencer. Keep on talking.
(7)
Hi Spencer
Thanks for your thoughts. Really good and helpful stuff.
From my own perspective, it can at times be a really difficult balance to strike. I have so appreciated discovering that there are people in the Emerging Church who think similar things to what I have been thinking for some time now, but almost been too afraid to verbalise in "respectable" church circles, and also to have affirmed that it is OK to think and work through these issues.
I find it particularly difficult when hostile, vitriolic and at times palpably untrue comments are aimed at those in the EC movement, (although I accept that the same feelings can be experience by established church members) which need to be challenged and corrected, and to try and discern what is the best manner and tone with which to counter them. I have great admiration for some of you folks statesides who are having to put up with some awful things being said and written about you. I have to say for the most part I find your respnses Gracious, compassionate, forgiving and Christlike. I don't often see or hear those qualities in some of the thoughts and comments of your detractors. I also feel that some of these people might just enjoy winding people up in hope of an animated and angry response whereby the most discerning thing of all might be not to dignify the comments with any sort of response at all. The same goes for those on the EC side of things because nothing is more tempting than the chance to rattle a conservative cage or two in the hope of an emotionally charged response!
How are we meant to respond if, and this is by no means true of all critics of the Emerging Church movement, it is openly stated that we ar not part of the "One True Church" (is that decision surely up to God to make!?). My own take is to rest confident in the belief that God is just and has the ultimate say as to who truly belongs to his church. Is there a time when hospitable theological discussion almost becomes impossible?
I agree with you that we need to try and engage graciously with each other across the theological divide but surely there is also a need to be "as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves".
Finally I do hope to be a fly on the wall in heaven when a member of the "one true church" bumps into someone they were convinced was not going to be there! Even better, I may welll be the person they will bump into!
Posted by philg | Posted at 03/28/2008 7:02 AMI am glad too for your article, your thoughts. Being relatively new to the reality of postmodernism, and the emergent church and even this medium for discussion (I had to take typewriting for my high school college prep curriculum!) I thot I sensed this underlying anger in alot of what I have been reading on sites like this, but thot maybe it was just my imagination. Your comments tell me that there might be something going on just under the surface of what is being written.
I commented on Scott Strissel's article "Trust Issues" and steve kay also commented on my comment, and it seemed to have a real tone of cynicism, which he admits to. It got me to thinking that it seems like, from my newbie position, maybe some of what is inderlying the emerging church movement is this distrust and anger...and I wonder if this distrust and anger at its heart is from the "beatings" some have taken at the hands of the church, and maybe even parents and teachers and profs and other authority figures in general. It's like "I don't know exactly what the church is to look like but I sure am not going to do it like them!" This is clearly articulated in some (most?) emerging church vision statements like "we are a church for people who don't like church" or some variation on that theme.
Understanding authority and submitting to authority I believe is a key element for the future, including especially the church. We will have to get this right. And I can feel the hair standing up on the back of someone's neck even as I write this. Organized church is seen as an authority and it seems like there is a rebellion against it going on that stems from distrust because of hurt.
I grew up in a conventional church and was a lay leader in another one for the past 17 years. Our church closed this past fall. Believe me when I say that I am asking God what was that all about and I don't want to do church like that ever again and there has to be more to it than what I have seen and experienced. this is why I am reading and thinking and listening. And believe me that I have taken some serious hits by people in the church and I said I don't ever have to be a part of a congregation again.
But I'm starting to think that maybe I can help change the church, help her to become all that God intends by being a part of her, by being on the inside, helping to change her at her heart first, as he continually changes me. This is what God does in individuals, right, inside out? And the church per se didn't hurt me...individuals did and I'm working on forgiving them, and hope they forgive me for when I hurt them.
Church built on anger and distrust is not on solid ground. I do think God is changing the church and the emergent way of thinking and doing is part of that. But just what is compelling us...? As long as we are identifying ourselves as being either organized church or emergent church we are divided, and in the meantime what's happening to the people in the rest of the world?
I am so sorry to anyone reading this who has been hurt by someone in the church or any authority figure in your life. I am sorry that you were made to feel like you were a piece of dirt, or had no clue what you were talking about or that you weren't worth the effort or the time. I am sorry that no one seemed to recognize the value of your insights and suggestions. I'm sorry that we were threatened by your different-ness and by your questions and doubts. I'm sorry we were too unsure ourselves to say I don't know why we do that or what that means. I'm sorry we don't behave very Christ-like sometimes. I hope you can forgive me and us.
I hope we can think, talk, plan, dream and become together the body of Christ for the sakes of all the people.
I hope love can compel us.
Posted by Diane | Posted at 03/28/2008 8:31 AMHello Spencer Thank you for this article. In my opinion you nailed this issue with"once again it comes down to you and me." Human nature and it seems particularly in christian culture, we define ourselves by our differences not by the many things we have in common. But the differences are important - they are what makes you you, and me me. How we dialogue and interact is the point. I don't know about you, but for me the list of things that I've been so sure were absolutes that have crumbled into dust over the years is just starting to make an impression that perhaps my view of things isn't always the last word. The "traditional church" doesn't have exclusivity rights on being dogmatic and judgmental. I shudder at times reading or hearing comments about the church. Hospitable dialogue - I like the feel of this. We need the debate and dialogue-passionate and heated, but we need to come to a place where we can be honest and respectful at the same time- and not only within the church. In many circles, Christianity=dogmatic, closeminded, judgemental. What would it look like if after a period of time Christianity=hospitable dialogue. I think it starts at home- with us. Keep up the great work - it is appreciated. Posted by jmcd3 | Posted at 03/29/2008 7:05 AM
Spence...HELP!
I'm so glad that I'm finding hospitality in the conversation on the ooze, with authors like McLaren and Wright, and with those close to me.
But I'm LOSING my hospitality. I've been arguing against fundamentalism for years now, saying that the life of Christ is MORE than head-belief and is about following. But it's getting more difficult, not easier, to keep my head-beliefs and following separate. Should they be?
At any rate, people who talk about the rapture, who prefer 'heavenly afterlife' to resurrection, who preach substitutionary atonement, and (the greatest of sins in my book) adhere to deterministic models of belief in God are driving me absolutely BATTY. It's so hard to bite my tongue and not to be 'puffed up'.
Diane - your comments brought tears to my eyes. I am one that was used then spit out by my spiritual family. I can not and will not give up on the church, but my definition of who she is and what she does is changing so rapidly that I'm experiencing vertigo.
I took vacation from the institutional church because it wasn't helping me become more like the master that I love. Has it helped? No. I am still so unlike him and so hungry for the kingdom. That hunger shouldn't cause me to hate the easy-answer types...but that is my struggle. I'm sick to death of the christian religion and starving for authentic faith...lived in the communitas of a people set apart for God.
Knowing I'm not alone just isn't as reassuring as it used to be. Pray for us.
Posted by joey aszterbaum | Posted at 03/30/2008 10:29 PMSpencer- I think your vision for TheOoze is...inspired. I share your vision that we should strive toward hospitality. Interesting that you predict that the Fundamentalist/Neo-Con will return back to the church after being diminshed politically. Maybe so. But you seem to be saying that 'relationship' with those belivers who value non-violence/peace will transform these individuals. I wish that I could be as hopeful. I've observed that there are two camps in the christian world, those who seek relationship with god and others first, and a second group that has an adgenda to use the church as a political tool under the thin veneer of faith. We need to acknowledge and learn from the last 10 years how the latter group came to associate The Cross with violence. Being a christian has, as I see it, been re-defined as Pro-War/Anti-Muslim/Pro State Sponsored Torture/Anti-Civil Liberties. How did that happen? How was I misled to "vote christian"? How was The Gospel twisted? If we don't answer these questions first, will be doomed to witness the cycle repeat, no matter how nice we are to each other. Posted by Laszlo aka Just A Tourist | Posted at 04/13/2008 5:33 AM
Just this weekend I found a Garden "plate" with the following expression on it:
"One who practices hospitality entertains God himself."
I found it so true. I can see this same idea in what you're suggesting also.
Good thoughts, Spencer.
'Seph
Posted by 'Seph | Posted at 04/28/2008 2:50 PMHi Guys
I am in the UK where the situation is a bit different but I am struggling with these issues. i am/was the elder in a great household church that is very 'emergentish' in model but we got there by gospel informed pragmatism. Over the last 4-5yrs we have 3 basic groups starting to take some sort of shape:
People who want to go more conservative, more right wing in Christian culture and draw very tight doctrinal lines in order to, very sincerely, 'defend the faith' (Conservative Evangelical Reformed Protestantism). People who are moving 'left' towards a more holistic vision of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God, who want to draw from much broader traditions (monastic, Anabaptist etc) and be more honest?, creative and adventurous in their reading and enacting of scripture. These people have lived in tension with and sometimes fear of the former group. People who couldn't give a monkey's about all of the above and are just trying to get on in faith and life
Is has been a testing and painful joy to try and hold these groups together in a the bond of peace and to try and make space for us to continue to grow in grace together. I recently stepped down as an elder because, although i was happy to sign the pretty tight statement of faith I know full well that how i read it and its importance to me and the culture of my response would not be at ease with the loose but particular denomination that we are in. It was an integrity thing but also about protecting the body from unnecessary heart ache if my continuing role caused others to split. I am still going to do the same stuff - just lose the 'title', which is fine by me as that’s obviously not what its about.
So- we are trying to live with our diversity in the body but and one of the things all the three groups are doing is broadening the scope of how we live out who god made us. Some are bull horn preaching in the city centre, others just getting by and I and a band of fellow faith explorers (so often alot of it comes down to personality type / stage of faith don't you think) are doing 'Engage'- creating a network of people, conversations and actions for those of us in group 2 and our Christian and other friends who need the broader honest engagement with faith. This also starts to create confidence and enables us to feed the things we are learning back into the local body.
Here's the encouraging bit - we have seen some real shift in the focus of the church towards a more holistic gospel, taking seriously issues of systemic social justice, the preference for the marginal, the needs of the poor etc. It has been slow and mainly through osmosis through lives lived together rather than 'ho down shown down' debate. This has been GREAT! Also those of us who feared relationships were being ruptured by our differences (on all sides) have made it a priority to sit down in groups and be very honest with each other and to seek reconciliation. Just last week I exchanged emails of repentance for things said and not said, done and not done with an old friend who I have wrestled with over 'doctrinal' issues many times over the past few years. Again this felt GREAT and very God honouring/pleasing.
We are miles and miles and miles from perfect and i really don't know what the future will bring but surely God is big enough to handle it. The emerging sense of truth seeking freedom in tension with genuine gentleness and kindness is a wonderful reflection of the gospel itself. Hey, it might all blow up next week but at least it feels as though we are all doing all we can to live out who God is making us as individuals and as a community – and after a good few years of living in a self imposed .shell of only surface engagement with others this is a massive relief and bodes well for fruitful times to come.
I'd love to hear more about other’s experiences with these issues (and particularly with working them out with real people rather than just jousting with concepts which I am now tiring of as it rarely serves the kingdom well in my own experience) and please feel free to come and check some of us out and join the conversation over at
http://www.engagesheffield.blogspot.com/
You might like this post about a hope for real 'conversation' http://engagesheffield.blogspot.com/2008/05/this-is-beautiful-its-conversation.html
Shalom
Posted by dgschof | Posted at 05/29/2008 1:07 AM*you say "fundamentalist" like it's a bad thing...as if it is only the fundamentalists who are intolerant. as if the average lurker couldn't tell you within a a couple of hours who the ooze bullies are. overall, the ooze has become average in that it is dominated by a Survivor-type mentality where the posters of new and unsettling ideas are berated or smothered with quick-fix answers. almost anything but hospitality for those fool-hardy enough to engage in a dialogue which could possibly lead to a furtherance of mutual, respectful understanding in the presence of disagreement. on second thought, that describes a powerful core group on the ooze. there are several thoughtful posters who do manage hospitality and manage it well. but the bullies, Spencer, i don't think that the subtlety of an article is going to work on them. just saying. Posted by a | Posted at 05/31/2008 1:20 PM
I have to admit that I am somewhat leery of anyone who *sets out* to do an "emerging" church or "church better than the way we grew up with it." Not because I think that's a bad thing, just because I'm scared as heck that it won't work and people will get hurt again! (As my dad said about church, when we first left the one that broke our hearts in many ways: "I can't think about church or theology directly right now: it's like staring at the sun. I have to look at it around the edges, in the little unexpected places." I am doing much better in that regard than I was--I actually have a church I go to that I feel happy and at home with--but I'm still looking in the margins, in the blogs and the random discussions with friends late at night. I think there must be other people like that out here, who aren't even ready for the "emerging church" yet....)
That said...this is a wonderful post. Thank you. I don't know where I'll end up...but hospitality and love and the assumption of good faith until proven otherwise are good, wonderful things. I have seen it happen that angry, hurt people started to be able to talk and listen again, rather than hiding or yelling. It's a good thing, and I hope I can keep my heart open to people I agree with *and* the ones who still piss me off. ;-)
Peace be with you.
Posted by Nenya | Posted at 07/21/2008 7:45 PMGood, thought-provoking post and comments!
I am one who has felt in my deepest heart of hearts for many years the ideas that are now being voiced by emerging church writers and speakers. As I read and hear what they are saying I feel as if I have come home. I no longer feel alone, after feeling that way for so many years. And after keeping quiet for so many years I feel I finally have a place to express what has been only in my heart and mind for so many years. Yes, I do at times, like some others, get a bit defensive in my conversation about my struggle to figure out this whole church thing and what it means to be a follower of Christ. And for that I am sorry. Your article helped me to put it a bit more in perspective and to again remind me of the need for love and compassion for all.
I have for several years been trying to talk about the need to move away from a them ("nonChristians") and us ("Christians") mentality and to love people where they are. But I many times fail to apply that to "Emerging" and "NonEmerging" as well. God help me. Why does there always have to be a them and us? Why can't we all see ourselves as people in need of God's love and grace - always?
Thank you for theooze and the opportunity to read challenging articles and comments. May we all seek God's wisdom as we wrestle with what it means to follow God for us as individuals and as the body of Christ.
Posted by amy | Posted at 08/05/2008 10:18 AMPerhaps with the same passion they lobbied the political system, those in the religious fundamentalist movement might come into the Church with a renewed sense of recapturing the "nostalgic" vision of what the "Church" is - the one that many have found wanting and have left almost completely.
It is most important to be able to determine who these "many" are that have found the Church "wanting". It seems that nearly every church out there is trying to reach those who left as teenagers or young adults. How about trying to reach out those who have walked away after many years of adult faith and devotion?
Posted by Reggia | Posted at 09/13/2008 4:24 PMSpencer - Thank you for saying things that truly touch you. I am part of a revisioned church that discusses many issues both within the scriptures and in the outside world every Sunday and it is done in a non-hostile and non-threathening environment. This church is being nurtured by the leaders and members to maintain this safe environment for an open discussion and it is an amazing feeling when people totally disagree about something, but they actually feel safe enough to say their thoughts to the other people around them.
I believe that if you have a faith and belief system in your personal life and if that system has been the same system for the last 10, 20, 30, or how many ever years then you are not living out your faith. Your faith and beliefs have to change because everything else in your life is changing and you are now looking at your life from a different perspective now compared to 10 years or even 1 year ago. It is wonderful to grow and find that someone else may have some insight into the scriptures or life that may actually work better in my life.
Thanks again Spencer. Keep on talking.
Posted by nancy | Posted at 11/11/2008 9:57 AM