Only in a mixed-up postmodern world is doubt considered faith, and embracing it a virtue. Good luck with your new community.
I don't think doubt is the goal. It's honesty we're after--and if honesty includes doubt, then so be it. I think honesty and truth love each other.
Hi James, Thank you for the thoughts. I think it's great how you're letting the sacred space be created by the people you are connected with and that it is a reflection of your people. Thank you for being a part of something that will let the rhythm of life emerge, rather than forcing a template from another place and people on yourselves. Jamie
Great comments James. This is very near and dear to my heart right now as I lead worship weekly and yet find myself in a constant quandary of whether we are doing the right thing. Comfort to wonder that there is no "right thing" - but I still think I will constantly struggle.
A friend of mine wrote a song a few years back with some amazing lyrics outlining the struggle of someone who puts way too much value on the songs sung from stage - both as the leader and the person in the audience. I can't print it all here, but the first two lines I think say it all:
"Clear the stage and set the sound and lights ablaze if that's the measure you must take to crush the idols. Jerk the pews and all the decorations too until the congregations few then have revival." (Ross King, All The Decorations Too)
Again, thank you for your words. They are refreshing in a moment when they are greatly needed.
I feel a strong connection to what you are saying. I sit in our pews (because I stepped down from the band), listening to the sermons (and giving some of them as well) and often feel like "what's the point?" I don't say that around the desire to worship and know the divine, but what is the point of the songs, words, pictures. Like you, I long for the moment of sacred space, I think we all do, but often we fool ourselves into thinking that we created it. There are moments when true sacred space is felt, when we experience the Presence, usually in spite of our attempts at worship.
It seems as though the means to an end has become the end in itself in many places. Too many focus on the means to an end when the end is what we desire and should be focussed on. It matters less if the means is CD's, bands, instrumental, chant, or Chris Tomlin's experience than that the end, or the Presence of God is experienced in the process. Does it really matter how we get there or just that we get there and in doing so, are made whole again?
I related to this part of your journey.
I just can't be impressed with most of evangelical worship. I think that's for two reasons:
1. It seems that modern (and postmodern) worship is intended to be some type of emotional experience akin to a creative (or not-so-creative) rock concert. I made my living for 7 years as a rock musican. I'm just not impressed.
2. The fact that I'm supposed to be impressed...that it's even about some sort of emotional 'impact' on me. That I'm supposed to be able to manufacture feelings for this 'unknowable god' who nonetheless has revealed himself.
I guess I started realizing that Jesus said "If you love me, you'll obey my commands." I looked around the evangelical world (around me and inside me) and realized that it was divorced from discipleship or any ethical demands. It seemed part and parcel of the American discipleship into Consumerism - my choice, my feelings, my experience, my beliefs. To continue would have been narcissism.
Somehow I've found myself in the liturgical church and it's been very healing. Sometimes I joke that I left a church that believed all the right things but didn't know how to worship God into a church who worships God rightly but believes all the wrong things (most of that sentence is meant facetiously, yet truthfully - how's that for pomo?)
I leave with a great quote from Stanley Hauerwas, who rescued me from cynicism when I thought maybe the Holy Spirit had withdrawn entirely from the Western Hemisphere and that the Church had ceased to exist:
"One reason why we Christians argue so much about which hymn to sing, which liturgy to follow, which way to worship is that the commandments teach us to believe that bad liturgy eventually leads to bad ethics. You begin by singing some sappy, sentimental hymn, then you pray some pointless prayer, and the next thing you know you have murdered your best friend."
That's it! Worship must lead to good ethics. Isn't that what James meant when he said that religion that is acceptable to the Father is to care for orphans and widows in their distress? Or what Paul meant when he said to offer our bodies as living sacrifices...this being our spiritual form of worship? Isn't that what Jesus meant when he said to love him by obeying?
It seems to me that for someone who does not know what worship is, you seem to know a whole lot about what it isn't... The Problem with worship, is that it must come from the heart, I fully agree that mouthing words on a screen to the latest "WOW hits" music does not cut it for some. I happen to think the industry that promotes Worship music is corrupt and much of the music is shallow and formalistic. But that is my opinion... Some find that Worship music evokes a spirit of awe and reverence toward God, and they run with it. Others find the spirit of worship in liturgy. Some find it in communing with God in the solitude of His creation... For me, worship is the expression of love and gratitude toward a God who cared enough, to provide a way for me to have a personal relationship with Him, through the sacrifice of His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ. So Whether I am in the City Park playing my recorder, or writing a piece of lyrics, or in a chapel praying, the point of worship is to express Praise and Thanksgiving to God for all he has done for me. Until we stand in His presence we will never fully comprehend the majesty of God, although contrary to popular belief, what we can know about God, And ourselves, is clearly written in His Word. It is knowing God, relating to him as a child to his Father, that brings forth a desire to worship for all who wish to fellowship with Him, In what ever way we are moved to express it.
More power to you. Just be careful not to belittle the worship style of others. That does more harm than good. I'm sure you didn't mean to. But people are sensitive.
Not directly related to your article, but I have become more and more disillusioned with the industry and celebrity that has sprung up around Christians criticizing other Christians in the name of Truth. There are entire blogs and websites and that are devoted to it. To name just a few famous criticizers... John McArthur, Heresy Hunters, alittleleaven...
For example, it has become popular to criticize "contemporary" worship music that is sappy and emotional. And it is popular for us to criticize worship songwriters who focus too much on themselves (writing/singing "I" too much). Anyone read the Psalms lately? David was VERY emotional. And he wrote "I" in his lyrics all the time. He was very fixated on his own personal experiences with God. He was practically a crybaby about it. But then, what else does a person have? I don't have your perspectives and experiences. I only have my own. So my job as a worshiper is to listen to David's experiences and draw from them what applies to me, and worship God for who He is and has been in my life AND in David's. We have a shared humanity, David and I. He can write and sing about himself all day long, and it applies to me because we are both humans confronted by the Divine. I don't get upset with David. I allow David to lead me in worship through the Psalms, even when he has written sappy emotional lyrics about his own life that seem to have nothing to do with me or mine. The fact is that they actually do.
All that to say, give Chris Tomlin a break. He's no David (which I'm sure Chris would admit), but if someone can't worship to his songs then that is a reflection of them, not him.
Hi James: I though I'd add my own ramblings to the list as well. Essentially, isn't worship meant to draw you closer, to take you away from the things outside that are just not necessary for just a little bit. If that is truly what worship is, then what ever works for the body is great. Not that Chris Tomlin, Hillsong et al are necessarily bad - loud sometimes, but not always bad. If it takes that to create a sacred space then so bit for some (frankly it doesn't work for me)
The important thing is what you said about worship being genuine. No matter what you do, if it's genuine than it's sacred.
James, Your struggles and those of your group seem generated by a apophatic mindset and approach towards God. There is value in what you are considering along those lines. But there is also value in the kataphatic approach towards God as well, and you may want to read up on kataphatic prayer and meditation to appreciate where the different ways of thinking are coming from.
At its extreme, the apophatic mindset is akin to agnosticism, "God exists, but is not truly knowable." At the other extreme, kataphaic mindsets are akin to idolatry, "God can totally be represented by and worshipped in an image." Somewhere between these two extremes is a life-giving and accessible place of worship and knowing God. Have fun on the journey!
(4)
Only in a mixed-up postmodern world is doubt considered faith, and embracing it a virtue. Good luck with your new community. Posted by bobbobnabob | Posted at 02/07/2009 9:48 AM
I don't think doubt is the goal. It's honesty we're after--and if honesty includes doubt, then so be it. I think honesty and truth love each other. Posted by James Shelley | Posted at 02/07/2009 9:52 PM
Hi James, Thank you for the thoughts. I think it's great how you're letting the sacred space be created by the people you are connected with and that it is a reflection of your people. Thank you for being a part of something that will let the rhythm of life emerge, rather than forcing a template from another place and people on yourselves. Jamie Posted by Jamie | Posted at 02/10/2009 10:07 AM
Great comments James. This is very near and dear to my heart right now as I lead worship weekly and yet find myself in a constant quandary of whether we are doing the right thing. Comfort to wonder that there is no "right thing" - but I still think I will constantly struggle.
A friend of mine wrote a song a few years back with some amazing lyrics outlining the struggle of someone who puts way too much value on the songs sung from stage - both as the leader and the person in the audience. I can't print it all here, but the first two lines I think say it all:
"Clear the stage and set the sound and lights ablaze if that's the measure you must take to crush the idols. Jerk the pews and all the decorations too until the congregations few then have revival." (Ross King, All The Decorations Too)
Again, thank you for your words. They are refreshing in a moment when they are greatly needed.
Posted by Nicole Starch | Posted at 02/10/2009 2:37 PMI feel a strong connection to what you are saying. I sit in our pews (because I stepped down from the band), listening to the sermons (and giving some of them as well) and often feel like "what's the point?" I don't say that around the desire to worship and know the divine, but what is the point of the songs, words, pictures. Like you, I long for the moment of sacred space, I think we all do, but often we fool ourselves into thinking that we created it. There are moments when true sacred space is felt, when we experience the Presence, usually in spite of our attempts at worship. Posted by zenpilgrim | Posted at 02/11/2009 2:39 PM
It seems as though the means to an end has become the end in itself in many places. Too many focus on the means to an end when the end is what we desire and should be focussed on. It matters less if the means is CD's, bands, instrumental, chant, or Chris Tomlin's experience than that the end, or the Presence of God is experienced in the process. Does it really matter how we get there or just that we get there and in doing so, are made whole again? Posted by monica | Posted at 02/14/2009 7:43 PM
I related to this part of your journey.
I just can't be impressed with most of evangelical worship. I think that's for two reasons:
1. It seems that modern (and postmodern) worship is intended to be some type of emotional experience akin to a creative (or not-so-creative) rock concert. I made my living for 7 years as a rock musican. I'm just not impressed.
2. The fact that I'm supposed to be impressed...that it's even about some sort of emotional 'impact' on me. That I'm supposed to be able to manufacture feelings for this 'unknowable god' who nonetheless has revealed himself.
I guess I started realizing that Jesus said "If you love me, you'll obey my commands." I looked around the evangelical world (around me and inside me) and realized that it was divorced from discipleship or any ethical demands. It seemed part and parcel of the American discipleship into Consumerism - my choice, my feelings, my experience, my beliefs. To continue would have been narcissism.
Somehow I've found myself in the liturgical church and it's been very healing. Sometimes I joke that I left a church that believed all the right things but didn't know how to worship God into a church who worships God rightly but believes all the wrong things (most of that sentence is meant facetiously, yet truthfully - how's that for pomo?)
I leave with a great quote from Stanley Hauerwas, who rescued me from cynicism when I thought maybe the Holy Spirit had withdrawn entirely from the Western Hemisphere and that the Church had ceased to exist:
"One reason why we Christians argue so much about which hymn to sing, which liturgy to follow, which way to worship is that the commandments teach us to believe that bad liturgy eventually leads to bad ethics. You begin by singing some sappy, sentimental hymn, then you pray some pointless prayer, and the next thing you know you have murdered your best friend."
That's it! Worship must lead to good ethics. Isn't that what James meant when he said that religion that is acceptable to the Father is to care for orphans and widows in their distress? Or what Paul meant when he said to offer our bodies as living sacrifices...this being our spiritual form of worship? Isn't that what Jesus meant when he said to love him by obeying?
Posted by The Charismanglican | Posted at 02/15/2009 8:17 AMIt seems to me that for someone who does not know what worship is, you seem to know a whole lot about what it isn't... The Problem with worship, is that it must come from the heart, I fully agree that mouthing words on a screen to the latest "WOW hits" music does not cut it for some. I happen to think the industry that promotes Worship music is corrupt and much of the music is shallow and formalistic. But that is my opinion... Some find that Worship music evokes a spirit of awe and reverence toward God, and they run with it. Others find the spirit of worship in liturgy. Some find it in communing with God in the solitude of His creation... For me, worship is the expression of love and gratitude toward a God who cared enough, to provide a way for me to have a personal relationship with Him, through the sacrifice of His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ. So Whether I am in the City Park playing my recorder, or writing a piece of lyrics, or in a chapel praying, the point of worship is to express Praise and Thanksgiving to God for all he has done for me. Until we stand in His presence we will never fully comprehend the majesty of God, although contrary to popular belief, what we can know about God, And ourselves, is clearly written in His Word. It is knowing God, relating to him as a child to his Father, that brings forth a desire to worship for all who wish to fellowship with Him, In what ever way we are moved to express it. Posted by Dorian | Posted at 02/20/2009 4:42 AM
More power to you. Just be careful not to belittle the worship style of others. That does more harm than good. I'm sure you didn't mean to. But people are sensitive.
Not directly related to your article, but I have become more and more disillusioned with the industry and celebrity that has sprung up around Christians criticizing other Christians in the name of Truth. There are entire blogs and websites and that are devoted to it. To name just a few famous criticizers... John McArthur, Heresy Hunters, alittleleaven...
For example, it has become popular to criticize "contemporary" worship music that is sappy and emotional. And it is popular for us to criticize worship songwriters who focus too much on themselves (writing/singing "I" too much). Anyone read the Psalms lately? David was VERY emotional. And he wrote "I" in his lyrics all the time. He was very fixated on his own personal experiences with God. He was practically a crybaby about it. But then, what else does a person have? I don't have your perspectives and experiences. I only have my own. So my job as a worshiper is to listen to David's experiences and draw from them what applies to me, and worship God for who He is and has been in my life AND in David's. We have a shared humanity, David and I. He can write and sing about himself all day long, and it applies to me because we are both humans confronted by the Divine. I don't get upset with David. I allow David to lead me in worship through the Psalms, even when he has written sappy emotional lyrics about his own life that seem to have nothing to do with me or mine. The fact is that they actually do.
All that to say, give Chris Tomlin a break. He's no David (which I'm sure Chris would admit), but if someone can't worship to his songs then that is a reflection of them, not him.
Posted by Ken | Posted at 02/27/2009 12:27 AMHi James: I though I'd add my own ramblings to the list as well. Essentially, isn't worship meant to draw you closer, to take you away from the things outside that are just not necessary for just a little bit. If that is truly what worship is, then what ever works for the body is great. Not that Chris Tomlin, Hillsong et al are necessarily bad - loud sometimes, but not always bad. If it takes that to create a sacred space then so bit for some (frankly it doesn't work for me)
The important thing is what you said about worship being genuine. No matter what you do, if it's genuine than it's sacred.
Posted by Jennifer | Posted at 03/06/2009 7:48 PMJames, Your struggles and those of your group seem generated by a apophatic mindset and approach towards God. There is value in what you are considering along those lines. But there is also value in the kataphatic approach towards God as well, and you may want to read up on kataphatic prayer and meditation to appreciate where the different ways of thinking are coming from.
At its extreme, the apophatic mindset is akin to agnosticism, "God exists, but is not truly knowable." At the other extreme, kataphaic mindsets are akin to idolatry, "God can totally be represented by and worshipped in an image." Somewhere between these two extremes is a life-giving and accessible place of worship and knowing God. Have fun on the journey!
Posted by Heather W | Posted at 03/10/2009 6:08 AM