Over the years I have come to the same conclusion. In fact, I have begun to actually pity the haters. I don't believe they have known true love, or the love that Christ talks about, or a mature intimate, sexual relationship. And knowing that they are missing that beautiful piece of the puzzle, they rail against people who have what they do not.
I guess I consider myself an Evangelical, as I tend to agree with their conservative theology. I also believe that homosexuality and other sexual promiscuity is a sin and it seems pretty clear to me that is what the Bible teaches.
However, I do agree with the author that too many in the Evangelical movement point to sexual sin more than others. In fact, just this week, my pastor made a point of talking about the moral degradation of America by pointing to our cultures more openness to pre-marital sex and sexual sins than in the past. Of course, I disagree that that means we're less moral as a whole -- because with that growing acceptance of sin, we've also matured in our views on racism and human equality.
But, it's my experience that people are judgmental in general. In fact, I think this article proves my point.
Listening to some concernded with the envronment in my area, I heard much said about the frogs that were in the water and the deformities and death rates that were being noticed. Extensive studies and recomendations were given to address the concerns. The concerns were about global issues but the frogs were indicators. Such is the case with sexual activities, they are indicators rather than identifiers. Yesterday I listened to an old podcast from Erwin McManus from September 24, 2006 - called [Life's Toughest Questions] "What About Sex?" on the topic that said it very clear. There is purpose in the design and a way to disreguard God is to reduce others to sexual beings or to identify myelf by by desires. Just as misunderstanding concern with the global environment as a simple fixation about frogs is this simplistic assessment with the concern with human sexuality in the evangelical community. But human sexuality is one of many indicators that are to be a concern to Christians. Certianly justice and concerns about bigotry are some others that are addressed in Scritpure, but they too are indicators not identifyers. I would prefer that as much engergy were given to being christians as was given to being sexual. Which informs the other? I would suggest that ones faith should serve to direct and identify rather than ones sexuality, race, culture etc.
Adele, as usually, I appreciate your transparency and authenticity.
I love the last two sentences: "Without the love of self, we can’t begin to love G-D or each other. Maybe it’s time to change focus." How often we invalidate individuals' right to love themselves. We use shame like an old cliche - a worn-out pop song everyone knows the words to. Time Christians give each other - and the world - PERMISSION to love themselves. Children of God...
Len Sweet talks about how HARD it is for us to say "I love you" without saying "BUT." -but- defeats just about anything.
When I was young boy I remember a conversation my mother had with me concerning gay relationships. It came up because my adopted brother was experimenting sexually with another man. What she said to me was that being homosexual was not only a choice, but due to sexual promiscuity wherein the individuals have lost the ability to love. In my young mind I accepted what she had to say. She was my mother. Why wouldn't I trust what she had to say?
As I grew up and began to travel the world I stumbled across a gay couple for the first time. A couple of funny ones those two. Entertained the hell out of me, but what was more is they had true affection for one another. They didn't care about the sideways or disgusted glances that were tossed their way. When one of them felt the need to display their affection I don't think heaven or hell could have stopped them. Being of an analytical mind I observed this interaction as well as the world around them for some time.
My conclusion at the time was simple: If God is as caring and loving as everyone told me he was there was no way he would punish these two for what so obviously was love. Towards the end when I was going Atheist(much like going "commando" when you have no clean underwear) I decided if there was a God I had no desire to be in his presence if he would even conceive of acting harshly to some of the relationships I've seen.
I look at this situation as both the fear of the unknown and a prejudice. Prejudiced because those who have read the bible are sure to have run into Sodom and Gamorrah and the destruction God wrought on those "sinners". Fear because they cannot wrap their minds around a same sex relationship, they cannot step outside themselves enough to visualize/see the dynamics. Due to these they will act harshly for anything that is not as it should must be shunned.
Wow. I am compelled to agree with a lot in this article. As a young man who has grown up in an Evangelical setting, I see the “morality police,” “prudish” yet “sex-crazed” individuals who I interact with daily.
I wince when I hear the divisiveness and us/them-mentality in, “Why does the Evangelical community...” and “Evangelicals are hyper-concerned...” They may be “lambasting everyone with their narrow interpretations of scripture” but the tone is possibly removed from compassion and empathy.
I am somewhat hesitant to believe, in the most sincere and embracing spirit, that you “believe that they have a right to their views...” when you describe them as a “selective view of holiness” and unequivocally “narrow view of scripture.”
I have a cavil about the overall tone that should only be heard in Christ’s love.
I am only carping about this small selection, because the article is superb. Thank you for sharing with us. I know so many people who need to read this!
Jacob,
i am glad you enjoyed the article and feel many people need to read it.
Maybe it sounds divisive to you, but when i am one on the receiving end of all this, it is simply my experience. Just calling a spade a spade. Jesus called out the Pharisees on their pharisaical beliefs.
i really am sorry you have a hard time believing that i do believe others have a right to their views even if i disagree with them.i am very sincere. Living in this great country of ours allows for freedom of ideas and beliefs. i do not have to agree in order to respect the rights of others to disagree with me. I have every right to call it as i see it. i have many conservative friends whom i respect greatly and we disagree on several things, but we respect that we have the right to our views.
Warm Regards,
Adele
8thdayplanner,
You bring up some good points. Thank you for your thoughts.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Kenny,
Am i understanding you correctly, or misunderstanding you, in that you are saying i am being judgmental, or the article shows how judgmental people can be?
Also, i do not think the Bible is clear on homosexuality when scriptures are interpreted in their proper historical and cultural contexts.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Ron,
Thanks for your thoughts. i especially liked when you said, "I would prefer that as much engergy were given to being christians as was given to being sexual. Which informs the other? I would suggest that ones faith should serve to direct and identify rather than ones sexuality, race, culture etc."
Can you explain to me further what you meant by, "indicators and identifiers'?
Thank you!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Peter,
Thanks for your kind words. You are always so supportive of me and i really appreciate it!
That word, 'BUT' is so small BUT huge in ramifications of words at times!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Leighton,
Thank you for your compassionate comments. i especially agree and resonate with this: "My conclusion at the time was simple: If God is as caring and loving as everyone told me he was there was no way he would punish these two for what so obviously was love. Towards the end when I was going Atheist(much like going "commando" when you have no clean underwear) I decided if there was a God I had no desire to be in his presence if he would even conceive of acting harshly to some of the relationships I've seen." SO TRUE!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Adele - thanks for sharing your story. The only way we change hearts is for people to get to know the other as a fellow sister in Christ - this way they're no longer a number but a fellow believer.
As far as the anger comments - I don't think those who haven't been on the brunt of anger get why sometimes others respond in anger. As a straight white chick, I have no clue what it's like to be discriminated on the basis of my race or sexual orientation. But I do receive a lot of hits from some evangelical/emergents for asking where are the women and other minorities given we're well into the 21st century and have an African American in the top job (not to mention a woman in the #3 position).
Becky you make a really important observation when you said, "The only way we change hearts is for people to get to know the other as a fellow sister in Christ - this way they're no longer a number but a fellow believer." So very true. THANK YOU!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Adele, thank you for contributing your thoughts here. I do not agree with you, however. I believe that God is concerned with many things in the world. He wants us to care about the poor, the environment, etc. But He is concerned about our sexuality just as much. The Body of Christ should be concerned about sexual issues because Satan does all that he can to distort what God has ordained for sex, marriage, and family.
I am so confident that Jesus loves homosexuals. The Gospel message of salvation is just as much for them as it is for anyone else. Yet, Jesus came in all truth of who God the Father is and what God has said. He never did or said anything that would contradict the Father. Christians who support homosexuality can distort the interpretation of the scriptures all they want, but they are not representing the truth. I am thankful, nonetheless, for those who have come out of homosexuality. I praise God for their testimonies. I would challenge you to hear what they have to say.
I do not doubt that same-sex couples can "fall in love." I do not doubt that you love Katryna. But romantic love is based on emotion. Our emotions can either be healthy or unhealthy. Therefore, we can be led by unhealthy emotions to enter into spiritually unhealthy relationships. I realize that you and others on the Ooze will disagree and dislike my view. Nonetheless, I do not hate you. I pray that you will not hate me. I pray that God will work in our hearts to mend and heal us from all deception.
Yep. You hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry more people didn't quite grasp what you were saying. The Church as an insititution seeks power and control. It sells itself as a basically 'good' and well meaning insitution, with good intentions, that has within it's ranks an occasional 'bad apple' The Individual beliver on the other hand is presnted as deeply flawed. Our very expressions of who we are sexually are held to be 'sin'. End of story.
This set-up allows The Church to inspect each individual for sin while ignoring the lack of social justice and love for one's brother within the code of...to pichk one example....lets say....civil tax law. " I don't want my taxes to pay for an unjust evil war, I wonder if my Pastor could help me with that "
Good luck.
It's not about faith and religion, it about tactics and power.
That, truly, is how the institutional church has survived ( and thrived )
Holly,
My point is not all the things G-D is concerned about, albeit those are important, but how Evangelicals are OVERLY concerned about sex and the sex-lives of others. Maybe if they focused more on the planks in their own eyes instead of the specks in the eyes of others, there would be less divorce. Especially in light of the fact that divorce rates are higher among Evangelicals than the population who does not identify as Evangelical Christian.
Jesus NEVER spoke about homosexuality but he did speak about the poor a lot! Maybe Christians like yourself are interpreting scriptures wrong? Could you even admit that?
You challenge me to listen to those who are ex-gay. Well, G-D bless them if they are happy. i spent years in ex-gay ministries and reparative therapy to 'fix' me and 'pray away the gay' and it NEVER helped or worked. It took me a long time to come to peace with how i am and to reconcile my sexuality with myself and G-D. i embrace my queerness and feel ever so loved, embraced and accepted totally by G-D with no condemnation. So, please don't preach at me.
AND, do not call my love for my wife unhealthy. You do not know me or her. There are plenty of heterosexuals whose love is unhealthy, including Evangelical Christians. EVERYONE, including heterosexuals and gays, can both fall into unhealthy and healthy relationships and love. So, to me, your argument is silly.
i do not hate you. You are free to have your views as i am. It is just sad to me that you feel so certain in your views and are not open to the possibility you could be wrong and that we all struggle to get and understand G-D and G-D's ways. None of us have it all figured out, including ME. i certainly could be wrong but am living my life the best way i can and think that G-D wants me to do. In the end, it is between ME and G-D and i think Evangelicals for get that. Instead they try and take the place of G-D by being the MORALITY POLICE>
Warm Regards, Adele
Just A Tourist,
i totally agree with what you said here, "It's not about faith and religion, it about tactics and power.
That, truly, is how the institutional church has survived ( and thrived ) "
Thanks much!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Even when there is disagreement among Christ-followers about whether or not homosexuality is a sin, I think we can all benefit from the observation that the evangelical community is obsessed with sex. I find it a bit ironic that so many resources have been poured into the gay marriage issue when there are kids around the world starving to death.
An often overlooked theme in Scripture is that God consistently employs strong language to describe the potential dangers of wealth, and to condemn the neglect of the poor. The “fire and brimstone” tones so often used by evangelicals to judge homosexuality are actually more commonly used in the Bible to judge excessive wealth and injustice toward the needy…issues that perhaps hit a little too close to home.
In Ezekiel 16:49, the prophet quotes God as saying:
“Behold, THIS was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it.”
I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been warned of God’s impending judgment on America in response to gay marriage or abortion or some sort of sexual issue. Attend just about any church event billed as “a time of prayer and fasting for our nation” and the focus will be on sex. However, a more serious look at Scripture reveals that the most consistent criteria regarding God’s judgment of nations is how those nations treat the poor.
When was the last time you witnessed a church "intervention" to try and counsel a member out of hoarding his money?
Great article, Adele! You know I always love what you have to say.
Rachel,
Thanks for your comments. i agree about the Sodom story. It is about a lack of hospitality and i believe in one of the gospels Jesus even refers to this story as such.
You hit the nail on the head as to the point of my article. Great insights!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Adele, thanks for your response. Yes, christians do need to work on their own lives. I believe that many are doing just that. We need to allow God to fix those things within us that need fixing. But that is not an excuse for us to avoid speaking the truth in love to the homosexual community. When conservative christians are challenged politically and legally, we respond. Spiritually, we have a responsibility in our churches to make it clear as to what we believe. We also need to help and support those who want to come out of this lifestyle.
In all honesty, I don't go up to homosexuals and say, "Hey, you're living in sin! Clean up your life and come to church." Most christians that I know do not either. Rather, we look at people who don't know Christ and pray that Jesus will draw their hearts near His. We look for opportunities to share our faith, and then I let the Holy Spirit go from there. By the way, I do not know anyone who uses the phrase "pray away the gay."
As to the scriptures, I am very certain that homosexuality is still a sin. Jesus never mentioned it as an issue in the Gospels. However, I would point back to what I said in my previous comment. Jesus came in all the truth of who God the Father is. Therefore, He would never contradict the Father who said in the Old Testament that homosexuality was wrong. In Acts 15 at the Council of Jerusalem, James reiterates the fact that Gentiles -- although not bound to levitical law with circumcision and so forth -- were still to follow God's view of sexual morality. Of course, Paul talks about homosexuality being a sin too. Interestingly, if you go through the Gospels, you will find helping the poor to have been on Christ's mind. However, He did not preach about it as much as some people say He did. He spent most of His time telling people about the Kingdom of God, healing, and delivering.
I didn't think that I was preaching to you or judging you. Rather, I was responding to what you have written in your article. If you are willing to post such an article, you can expect that you will have people who disagree -- expecially on this topic. I am not afraid to say that I believe you're wrong in your view, but I say it respectfully. God loves you, Adele. I do, too.
Thanks you! Well said, well said...
Becky,
What i meant when i said don't preach at me was when you said, "I would challenge you to hear what they have to say." i am mistaken in that you were challenging rather than preaching and i apologize. It's just that you do not know me except from this article and my history. So, i took offense. Sorry.
The ex-gay movement is baout praying the gay away, so that is my experience and what i meant. Many in the church are not welcoming to gays in gay relationships without the expectation to 'repent and change', where we do not see being gay as a sin.
Instead of trying to get to know us gay people and thinking we cannot have a relationship with G-D and Jesus because we are actively being gay shuts the conversation down. i think Evangelicals ought to tone it down a bit in their anti-gay rhetoric and take the time to get to know us as people. Who are Evangelicals to judge my relationship with G-D and whether it is real and authentic or not. This speaks of utter arrogance to me.
Thanks for the conversation. We obviously disagree and i am ok with that. G-D bless you on your journey.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Rusty,
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Warm Regards,
Adele
My response above addressed to Becky was intended to be addressed to Holly. Sorry!
Adele
That is, the response right above my response to Rusty was meant to be addressed to Holly and not Becky.
Adele
Good - I'm having a really, really bad day so glad to hear there's one less person I ticked off. Nice to see this article getting this much dialogue.
Becky,
So sorry about that. With the ol' Lyme Disease i get mixed up sometimes. i knew i was addressing Holly but typed your name cuz i think i had responded to your comment as well. i know you are supportive of LGBTQ people! :)
Take care!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Hey Adele, I shouldn't be utterly, just taken back by this article but I am. I read the whole thing with my mouth open, with my heart aching that there are people believing this. This has been around for a long time and may not ever go away. That is my statement.
My Question I would love, just love for you to show me these scriptures that have been misinterpreted from the moment they were written? That is, about Homosexuality. Also if you could so kindly give me the right interpretation and where you get your Historical background of the verses and what not, that would great.
I have been hearing about this sort of thing a bit more lately, but haven't come into contact with yet and this is my first time. So I am more then open to hearing and reading where you get that Homosexuality is not wrong, this way I may have a better understanding what and where, you and seems like a whole lot more people are coming from.
If you could email me as I don't check this blog very often and not sure if I will anymore.
Thank you, Theron
I am a Christ follower who struggles with pornography, and I find this article disheartening knowing that others will be mislead. I am so glad that Jesus has saved me from myself, but the flesh is still weak, and along with other sins that I commit (not feeding the poor, getting angry at my parents, gluttony, slothfulness, to name a few) pornography is just one. But where does one find anything Jesus said about pornography?
There are many other texts and ways to point to the beautiful coming together of one man and one woman, but, since there seems to be some sort of confusion that Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, or other sexual sins for that matter, I offer the following scripture from Mark 7:
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " -NIV
This was a Jewish audience, and for Jesus to say sexual sins, fornication, or what have you would have been understood as sexual sins. Plural, not a couple, but all sexual sins that the Jewish people had been familiar with. Jesus did not have to give examples of different types of malice and how to know how to control this form of malice compared to that form of malice. All malice is wrong, just as all sexual sin is wrong.
My prayer is that all these unclean items should receive their due time in all of God's kingdom. All, as verse 23 states, not some of these sins needs to be worked on with our Savior, even if it does take a lifetime. I, as well as all who come to Jesus Christ, should be amazed and in awe of His ability to forgive once we have done wrong, and astounded by the grace that He gives us. What a wonderful Savior we have indeed!
Theron,
i responded to you via email per your request.
Adele
Dave,
i am sorry you are disheartened and feel others will be misled. i am saddened that you and others that think along the same lines cannot see that G-D's kingdom is big enough to allow for divergent viewpoints. i respect you difference of opinions and beliefs even though i do not agree with you. You certainly have the freedom to them.
i am happily married and find it a joy everday to grow in my relationship with my wife and with G-D.
i wish you nothing but joy, peace, love and happiness in your life.
G-D's blessings to you!
Warmest Regards,
Adele
My church not only has not had a sexual sermon, but we have homosexuals in our congregation. We are all sinners, no matter what the sin is. No one can cast that first stone. Everybody deserves the chance to have a home church that can nurture them, counsel them, and comfort them. Why are some church's taking that away?
Every week we are reminded to reach out our arms to our brothers and sisters around us and embrace them with Christ's love. Give them God's word. Do the deeds we were sent to do. It gets a bit redundant hearing it every week, but pretty soon you get it and do it.
No where do we hear "Tell the gays to go away"
I think I will stay at my church and hear people welcoming each other and praying for each other. We need to so we can stay strong.
Thea,
Thanks for your embracing attitude and loving ALL people! i wish more Christians had your and your churche's attitude. It is very Christ-like!
Thank you for sharing your personal experience.
All the best to you!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Thanks for the sweeping generalization and pigeon-holing of Evangelicalism. I'm sorry you get mad when people interprete the Bible in ways you don't like. It just seems silly to assume that is the only thing they are about.
Outdeep,
i speak from my personal experiences. i have many conservative evangelical friends who don't agree with me but we can still be friends, have deep conversations, and don't focus on sex. i can agree to disagree with people. i am not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking. It is my observation and personal experience that those who focus on the sex act itself all the time with regards to homosexuality are evangelicals. People are free to interpret the Bible as they see it, all i am asking is that we ALL, including MYSELF, recognize none of us has a monopoly on interpretation and that we don't know everything. Sex is not all evangelicals are about except when it comes to the topic of homosexuality and that was my point. Maybe if you re-read the post you will see that!
Pax and G-D Bless!
Warmest Regards,
Adele
I also respectfully disagree with your views, Adele, for many of the same reasons that Holly does. One thing that stood out to me from your comments was the statement that none of your efforts at being healed of your homosexuality worked and so you chose to live into your homosexuality instead (paraphrased). I know of many Christians who have not been healed of their human imperfections, from paralysis and deformities to addictions too numerous to list, yet they accept God's will for their lives and live according to the Bible by the power granted to them, moment by moment, day by day, by the Holy Spirit. Paul himself wrote of his thorn that no amount of prayer would heal. In 2 Corinthians 12 we read: "7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." We don't know what his thorn was, but perhaps we could each substitute our own thorn(s) that God chooses not to heal in His perfect will. Because we are not healed as our limited brains think we should be does not give us permission to interpret scripture differently than it has been for thousands of years. I am motivated to comment not because I judge you or hate you but because I and most of the Christians I know have our own "thorns" to live with. I am also involved in outreach to the poor and am active in a ministry that provides care and counseling to women who are victims of domestic violence and abuse as well as to women who are trying to recover from addictions and prostitution. I say this to you to let you know that I am not an official of the morality police, just another of many Christians who are trying to live by the word of God, whether or not it always suits what I want to do...and often I fail. Thanks to our merciful God for His amazing grace.
Wow. from the title, I assumed that this article was going in a different direction. I think the evangelical subculture is particularlly sex-crazed, not just due to its voyeuristic obsession with the sexual sins of others, but an overall preoccupation with sex. I hear of more and more churches taking the seven-day sex challenge or studying 40 days of sex during lent. Christian authors and radio talking heads encourage housewives on how they can keep their husbands pumped up on the sex-induce endorphins they need to be happy and successful - turning women into a mere drug-delivery system. Out of panic over the dwindling population of white evangelicals, youth are being encouraged to get married as young as possible and to immediately start pumping out babies - even if the only motivation to get married is hormones.
It's madness. Perhaps it is an over-reactiion to victorian sexual repressiveness, which was also madness. I place the blame deeper: on a complete loss of ultimate truth and meaning in Christianity resulting from decades of fundamentalism and pragmatism. Christianity has become the religion about nothing. Sexual obsession may just a way to deaden the ontological vaccuum.
I guess by many comments here we are to throw away part of God's commands concerning purity and faithfulness. (or at least ignore them) While we have other issues to be concerned about, the neglect of God's Word concerning the importance of the family for the health of society, the importance of faithfulness, and the importance of Mothers and Fathers to raise children in Godliness in the Nuclear family and in His larger family the Church is vital to all of society. The person raised in a single-parent home is by and far more likely to commit crime and be dysfunctional in every other way.
Marraige isn't about a person's sexual pleasure. Sex, while pleasurable, is given by God to be expressed in ONE faithful, heterosexual, other-honoring, relationship UNDER God to create families for the nurture of children. It's about the best place - BY GOD'S DESIGN - to raise children. We will not bring revival to the church by ignoring God's commands or being silent about them.
This post shows just how Biblically illiterate those calling themselves Christian today are. There is truth. It is important. While we love people in sin, we love them best by lovingly telling them of that sin. The conditions for saving Grace are repentance and faith. Shall we forget the Gospel which calls for holiness of life in the power of the Spirit?
Before someone spouts the false notion that Christians get divorced as much as non-Christians. If you do a little study you will discover that those statistics are built on a self-report - where someone says "I am a Christian". But those studies where behavior is included, such as regular Church attendance, prayer, etc,; those who BEHAVE as Christians get divorced far less.
The "fundamentalists" and "legalistic" and "rigid" Christians many of you abuse in your comments have a divorce rate in the single digits - by behavioral factors.
It seems the only group that can be beat up on - even here - are those who are trying to live out faithfully the commands of Christ. By the way, these people with high spiritual commitment are far from repressed sexually. They, according to all studies, have the highest reported rate of sexual satisfaction - with ONE spouse for life as God commands.
Many of you glory in beating up on your brothers and sisters in Christ and accuse them wrongly of many things. You don't even have the descency to get your facts right. You are the ones tearing apart God's family.
I make no apology. Maybe some of you should apologize to God for disdaining His command - one of the 10 - commandment - if you don't know - concerns sexual purity.
It is ALSO A LIE that these Christians have been uninvolved in other issues. While Christians do not "blow their own horn", most giving to missions work, the poor around the world, aids victims, disasters come from the faithful Christians you despise.
I am all for change and improvement in the Church. We can do better. But it is dishonoring to GOD to treat your brethren in the way many of you do in these posts. Likewise, you dishonor God by endorsing what He says He hates - sin of every kind.
Adele,
You are so spot-on in sayin that Evangelicals are sex-obsessed.
I deal in alot of sociologic research. Here's some for ya:
the amount of porn access goes significantly up in Las Vegas hotels when that hotel hosts a Christian event (esp. youth pastors). The amount of porn usage and extra-marital affairs (eg, sexual behaviors) amongst people claiming to be Evangelical Christians is higher than those who do not claim to be so. Oh, and divorce rates are higher among Evangelicals than non-Evangelicals. What is leaking out in the Marriage and Family Counseling literature is that many of those divorces are fueled by sexual obsession, mostly on the part of males hooked on porn and strip clubs...
Oh, by the way... the rate of these things amongst 'pastors' (who are 95% male in America) seems to sift out at the same rate as other Evangelicals...
As with any obsession, the overall portrait of that area of life will be significantly skewed. Evangelicals are sexually frustrated, and so they "kick the gays" to try and vent that dicotomy in their hearts. Meanwhile, the Evangelicals have found internet porn and sneaking into strip clubs as pretty do-able... then sing their hymns nice and loud on Sunday morning next to their spouses...
Time the Evangelical church just shuts it's collective mouths (screaming at everybody else) and works on living in right relationship with G-D and each other... which means major therapy for the sexual obsessive fixation.
Only a healthy and Biblical way of viewing and living sexuality can bring sanity to this insane problem.
hang in there, Adele
crisbaj
The divorce rate among Evangelicals is absolutely higher because more evangelicals are getting married. More Evangelicals 'by ratio' still believe in the covenant of marriage and are attempting to hold to it. (I am NOT going to argue at all the definition of marriage. Don't even think about it) Not that Evang. Christians are succeeding but they are willing at least to committ to the idea instead of just 'living together'.
Everyone has a sexual side that can be corrupted. And the Devil does use it to bring us down. There is No sin in loving others. No sin in love! There is however lots of sin involved in everything that people try to consider to be love. Like sex, abuse, manipulation... I could name others. It is based in chemistry and emotions and mental games. Sex surely feels like it is heavenly and it is much like God in it's ability to create. But, it is not true love. True love is almost undefineable unless you are looking at it. Like someone dying in front of you and you are holding there hand and overlooking the smell of crap and medicine to be there for them.
I am a hetero, Evengelical hairdresser and minister. I have had many good friends that were gay. I can not nor will I condemn them when Jesus did not. One of my best friends of my life was gay and I got to watch him die from complications with AIDS. I prayed for him and he made peace with God and asked for forgiveness before he died. Need I explain more?
Humility people... humility.
Love is a verb! People's own actions condemn themselves, what we do and what we don't do... I only know that we all need God equally. We all sin!
I do not believe that homosexuality is okay. That truth really hasn't changed. I only know that I loved my friend with all of my heart. I am reminded of him daily. I loved him (which is NOT a sin) I just didn't have sex with him!
Peace and Blessings to all of you in the name of Jesus. Nick
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Over the years I have come to the same conclusion. In fact, I have begun to actually pity the haters. I don't believe they have known true love, or the love that Christ talks about, or a mature intimate, sexual relationship. And knowing that they are missing that beautiful piece of the puzzle, they rail against people who have what they do not. Posted by 8thdayplanner | Posted at 02/17/2009 6:37 AM
I guess I consider myself an Evangelical, as I tend to agree with their conservative theology. I also believe that homosexuality and other sexual promiscuity is a sin and it seems pretty clear to me that is what the Bible teaches.
However, I do agree with the author that too many in the Evangelical movement point to sexual sin more than others. In fact, just this week, my pastor made a point of talking about the moral degradation of America by pointing to our cultures more openness to pre-marital sex and sexual sins than in the past. Of course, I disagree that that means we're less moral as a whole -- because with that growing acceptance of sin, we've also matured in our views on racism and human equality.
But, it's my experience that people are judgmental in general. In fact, I think this article proves my point.
Posted by Kenny Johnson | Posted at 02/17/2009 9:11 AMListening to some concernded with the envronment in my area, I heard much said about the frogs that were in the water and the deformities and death rates that were being noticed. Extensive studies and recomendations were given to address the concerns. The concerns were about global issues but the frogs were indicators. Such is the case with sexual activities, they are indicators rather than identifiers. Yesterday I listened to an old podcast from Erwin McManus from September 24, 2006 - called [Life's Toughest Questions] "What About Sex?" on the topic that said it very clear. There is purpose in the design and a way to disreguard God is to reduce others to sexual beings or to identify myelf by by desires. Just as misunderstanding concern with the global environment as a simple fixation about frogs is this simplistic assessment with the concern with human sexuality in the evangelical community. But human sexuality is one of many indicators that are to be a concern to Christians. Certianly justice and concerns about bigotry are some others that are addressed in Scritpure, but they too are indicators not identifyers. I would prefer that as much engergy were given to being christians as was given to being sexual. Which informs the other? I would suggest that ones faith should serve to direct and identify rather than ones sexuality, race, culture etc. Posted by Ron Hunter | Posted at 02/17/2009 9:21 AM
Adele, as usually, I appreciate your transparency and authenticity.
I love the last two sentences: "Without the love of self, we can’t begin to love G-D or each other. Maybe it’s time to change focus." How often we invalidate individuals' right to love themselves. We use shame like an old cliche - a worn-out pop song everyone knows the words to. Time Christians give each other - and the world - PERMISSION to love themselves. Children of God...
Len Sweet talks about how HARD it is for us to say "I love you" without saying "BUT." -but- defeats just about anything.
Posted by Peter Walker - EmergingChristian.com | Posted at 02/17/2009 10:20 PMWhen I was young boy I remember a conversation my mother had with me concerning gay relationships. It came up because my adopted brother was experimenting sexually with another man. What she said to me was that being homosexual was not only a choice, but due to sexual promiscuity wherein the individuals have lost the ability to love. In my young mind I accepted what she had to say. She was my mother. Why wouldn't I trust what she had to say?
As I grew up and began to travel the world I stumbled across a gay couple for the first time. A couple of funny ones those two. Entertained the hell out of me, but what was more is they had true affection for one another. They didn't care about the sideways or disgusted glances that were tossed their way. When one of them felt the need to display their affection I don't think heaven or hell could have stopped them. Being of an analytical mind I observed this interaction as well as the world around them for some time.
My conclusion at the time was simple: If God is as caring and loving as everyone told me he was there was no way he would punish these two for what so obviously was love. Towards the end when I was going Atheist(much like going "commando" when you have no clean underwear) I decided if there was a God I had no desire to be in his presence if he would even conceive of acting harshly to some of the relationships I've seen.
I look at this situation as both the fear of the unknown and a prejudice. Prejudiced because those who have read the bible are sure to have run into Sodom and Gamorrah and the destruction God wrought on those "sinners". Fear because they cannot wrap their minds around a same sex relationship, they cannot step outside themselves enough to visualize/see the dynamics. Due to these they will act harshly for anything that is not as it should must be shunned.
Posted by Leighton Allred | Posted at 02/18/2009 9:31 AMWow. I am compelled to agree with a lot in this article. As a young man who has grown up in an Evangelical setting, I see the “morality police,” “prudish” yet “sex-crazed” individuals who I interact with daily.
I wince when I hear the divisiveness and us/them-mentality in, “Why does the Evangelical community...” and “Evangelicals are hyper-concerned...” They may be “lambasting everyone with their narrow interpretations of scripture” but the tone is possibly removed from compassion and empathy.
I am somewhat hesitant to believe, in the most sincere and embracing spirit, that you “believe that they have a right to their views...” when you describe them as a “selective view of holiness” and unequivocally “narrow view of scripture.”
I have a cavil about the overall tone that should only be heard in Christ’s love.
I am only carping about this small selection, because the article is superb. Thank you for sharing with us. I know so many people who need to read this!
Posted by JacobM | Posted at 02/18/2009 3:11 PMJacob,
i am glad you enjoyed the article and feel many people need to read it.
Maybe it sounds divisive to you, but when i am one on the receiving end of all this, it is simply my experience. Just calling a spade a spade. Jesus called out the Pharisees on their pharisaical beliefs.
i really am sorry you have a hard time believing that i do believe others have a right to their views even if i disagree with them.i am very sincere. Living in this great country of ours allows for freedom of ideas and beliefs. i do not have to agree in order to respect the rights of others to disagree with me. I have every right to call it as i see it. i have many conservative friends whom i respect greatly and we disagree on several things, but we respect that we have the right to our views.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/18/2009 4:20 PM8thdayplanner,
You bring up some good points. Thank you for your thoughts.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/18/2009 4:22 PMKenny,
Am i understanding you correctly, or misunderstanding you, in that you are saying i am being judgmental, or the article shows how judgmental people can be?
Also, i do not think the Bible is clear on homosexuality when scriptures are interpreted in their proper historical and cultural contexts.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/18/2009 4:25 PMRon,
Thanks for your thoughts. i especially liked when you said, "I would prefer that as much engergy were given to being christians as was given to being sexual. Which informs the other? I would suggest that ones faith should serve to direct and identify rather than ones sexuality, race, culture etc."
Can you explain to me further what you meant by, "indicators and identifiers'?
Thank you!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/18/2009 4:29 PMPeter,
Thanks for your kind words. You are always so supportive of me and i really appreciate it!
That word, 'BUT' is so small BUT huge in ramifications of words at times!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/18/2009 4:31 PMLeighton,
Thank you for your compassionate comments. i especially agree and resonate with this: "My conclusion at the time was simple: If God is as caring and loving as everyone told me he was there was no way he would punish these two for what so obviously was love. Towards the end when I was going Atheist(much like going "commando" when you have no clean underwear) I decided if there was a God I had no desire to be in his presence if he would even conceive of acting harshly to some of the relationships I've seen." SO TRUE!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/18/2009 4:32 PMAdele - thanks for sharing your story. The only way we change hearts is for people to get to know the other as a fellow sister in Christ - this way they're no longer a number but a fellow believer.
As far as the anger comments - I don't think those who haven't been on the brunt of anger get why sometimes others respond in anger. As a straight white chick, I have no clue what it's like to be discriminated on the basis of my race or sexual orientation. But I do receive a lot of hits from some evangelical/emergents for asking where are the women and other minorities given we're well into the 21st century and have an African American in the top job (not to mention a woman in the #3 position).
Posted by Becky | Posted at 02/19/2009 9:23 AMBecky you make a really important observation when you said, "The only way we change hearts is for people to get to know the other as a fellow sister in Christ - this way they're no longer a number but a fellow believer." So very true. THANK YOU!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/19/2009 9:26 AMAdele, thank you for contributing your thoughts here. I do not agree with you, however. I believe that God is concerned with many things in the world. He wants us to care about the poor, the environment, etc. But He is concerned about our sexuality just as much. The Body of Christ should be concerned about sexual issues because Satan does all that he can to distort what God has ordained for sex, marriage, and family.
I am so confident that Jesus loves homosexuals. The Gospel message of salvation is just as much for them as it is for anyone else. Yet, Jesus came in all truth of who God the Father is and what God has said. He never did or said anything that would contradict the Father. Christians who support homosexuality can distort the interpretation of the scriptures all they want, but they are not representing the truth. I am thankful, nonetheless, for those who have come out of homosexuality. I praise God for their testimonies. I would challenge you to hear what they have to say.
I do not doubt that same-sex couples can "fall in love." I do not doubt that you love Katryna. But romantic love is based on emotion. Our emotions can either be healthy or unhealthy. Therefore, we can be led by unhealthy emotions to enter into spiritually unhealthy relationships. I realize that you and others on the Ooze will disagree and dislike my view. Nonetheless, I do not hate you. I pray that you will not hate me. I pray that God will work in our hearts to mend and heal us from all deception.
Posted by Holly | Posted at 02/19/2009 11:39 AMYep. You hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry more people didn't quite grasp what you were saying. The Church as an insititution seeks power and control. It sells itself as a basically 'good' and well meaning insitution, with good intentions, that has within it's ranks an occasional 'bad apple' The Individual beliver on the other hand is presnted as deeply flawed. Our very expressions of who we are sexually are held to be 'sin'. End of story.
This set-up allows The Church to inspect each individual for sin while ignoring the lack of social justice and love for one's brother within the code of...to pichk one example....lets say....civil tax law. " I don't want my taxes to pay for an unjust evil war, I wonder if my Pastor could help me with that "
Good luck.
It's not about faith and religion, it about tactics and power.
That, truly, is how the institutional church has survived ( and thrived )
Posted by Just A Tourist | Posted at 02/20/2009 6:07 AMHolly,
My point is not all the things G-D is concerned about, albeit those are important, but how Evangelicals are OVERLY concerned about sex and the sex-lives of others. Maybe if they focused more on the planks in their own eyes instead of the specks in the eyes of others, there would be less divorce. Especially in light of the fact that divorce rates are higher among Evangelicals than the population who does not identify as Evangelical Christian.
Jesus NEVER spoke about homosexuality but he did speak about the poor a lot! Maybe Christians like yourself are interpreting scriptures wrong? Could you even admit that?
You challenge me to listen to those who are ex-gay. Well, G-D bless them if they are happy. i spent years in ex-gay ministries and reparative therapy to 'fix' me and 'pray away the gay' and it NEVER helped or worked. It took me a long time to come to peace with how i am and to reconcile my sexuality with myself and G-D. i embrace my queerness and feel ever so loved, embraced and accepted totally by G-D with no condemnation. So, please don't preach at me.
AND, do not call my love for my wife unhealthy. You do not know me or her. There are plenty of heterosexuals whose love is unhealthy, including Evangelical Christians. EVERYONE, including heterosexuals and gays, can both fall into unhealthy and healthy relationships and love. So, to me, your argument is silly.
i do not hate you. You are free to have your views as i am. It is just sad to me that you feel so certain in your views and are not open to the possibility you could be wrong and that we all struggle to get and understand G-D and G-D's ways. None of us have it all figured out, including ME. i certainly could be wrong but am living my life the best way i can and think that G-D wants me to do. In the end, it is between ME and G-D and i think Evangelicals for get that. Instead they try and take the place of G-D by being the MORALITY POLICE>
Warm Regards, Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 9:17 AMJust A Tourist,
i totally agree with what you said here, "It's not about faith and religion, it about tactics and power.
That, truly, is how the institutional church has survived ( and thrived ) "
Thanks much!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 9:20 AMEven when there is disagreement among Christ-followers about whether or not homosexuality is a sin, I think we can all benefit from the observation that the evangelical community is obsessed with sex. I find it a bit ironic that so many resources have been poured into the gay marriage issue when there are kids around the world starving to death.
An often overlooked theme in Scripture is that God consistently employs strong language to describe the potential dangers of wealth, and to condemn the neglect of the poor. The “fire and brimstone” tones so often used by evangelicals to judge homosexuality are actually more commonly used in the Bible to judge excessive wealth and injustice toward the needy…issues that perhaps hit a little too close to home.
In Ezekiel 16:49, the prophet quotes God as saying:
“Behold, THIS was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it.”
I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been warned of God’s impending judgment on America in response to gay marriage or abortion or some sort of sexual issue. Attend just about any church event billed as “a time of prayer and fasting for our nation” and the focus will be on sex. However, a more serious look at Scripture reveals that the most consistent criteria regarding God’s judgment of nations is how those nations treat the poor.
When was the last time you witnessed a church "intervention" to try and counsel a member out of hoarding his money?
Great article, Adele! You know I always love what you have to say.
Posted by Rachel H. Evans | Posted at 02/20/2009 11:12 AMRachel,
Thanks for your comments. i agree about the Sodom story. It is about a lack of hospitality and i believe in one of the gospels Jesus even refers to this story as such.
You hit the nail on the head as to the point of my article. Great insights!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 11:17 AMAdele, thanks for your response. Yes, christians do need to work on their own lives. I believe that many are doing just that. We need to allow God to fix those things within us that need fixing. But that is not an excuse for us to avoid speaking the truth in love to the homosexual community. When conservative christians are challenged politically and legally, we respond. Spiritually, we have a responsibility in our churches to make it clear as to what we believe. We also need to help and support those who want to come out of this lifestyle.
In all honesty, I don't go up to homosexuals and say, "Hey, you're living in sin! Clean up your life and come to church." Most christians that I know do not either. Rather, we look at people who don't know Christ and pray that Jesus will draw their hearts near His. We look for opportunities to share our faith, and then I let the Holy Spirit go from there. By the way, I do not know anyone who uses the phrase "pray away the gay."
As to the scriptures, I am very certain that homosexuality is still a sin. Jesus never mentioned it as an issue in the Gospels. However, I would point back to what I said in my previous comment. Jesus came in all the truth of who God the Father is. Therefore, He would never contradict the Father who said in the Old Testament that homosexuality was wrong. In Acts 15 at the Council of Jerusalem, James reiterates the fact that Gentiles -- although not bound to levitical law with circumcision and so forth -- were still to follow God's view of sexual morality. Of course, Paul talks about homosexuality being a sin too. Interestingly, if you go through the Gospels, you will find helping the poor to have been on Christ's mind. However, He did not preach about it as much as some people say He did. He spent most of His time telling people about the Kingdom of God, healing, and delivering.
I didn't think that I was preaching to you or judging you. Rather, I was responding to what you have written in your article. If you are willing to post such an article, you can expect that you will have people who disagree -- expecially on this topic. I am not afraid to say that I believe you're wrong in your view, but I say it respectfully. God loves you, Adele. I do, too.
Posted by Holly | Posted at 02/20/2009 11:49 AMThanks you! Well said, well said... Posted by rusty | Posted at 02/20/2009 12:29 PM
Becky,
What i meant when i said don't preach at me was when you said, "I would challenge you to hear what they have to say." i am mistaken in that you were challenging rather than preaching and i apologize. It's just that you do not know me except from this article and my history. So, i took offense. Sorry.
The ex-gay movement is baout praying the gay away, so that is my experience and what i meant. Many in the church are not welcoming to gays in gay relationships without the expectation to 'repent and change', where we do not see being gay as a sin.
Instead of trying to get to know us gay people and thinking we cannot have a relationship with G-D and Jesus because we are actively being gay shuts the conversation down. i think Evangelicals ought to tone it down a bit in their anti-gay rhetoric and take the time to get to know us as people. Who are Evangelicals to judge my relationship with G-D and whether it is real and authentic or not. This speaks of utter arrogance to me.
Thanks for the conversation. We obviously disagree and i am ok with that. G-D bless you on your journey.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 12:46 PMRusty,
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 12:47 PMMy response above addressed to Becky was intended to be addressed to Holly. Sorry!
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 9:05 PMThat is, the response right above my response to Rusty was meant to be addressed to Holly and not Becky.
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/20/2009 9:08 PMGood - I'm having a really, really bad day so glad to hear there's one less person I ticked off. Nice to see this article getting this much dialogue.
Posted by Becky | Posted at 02/21/2009 4:05 PM
Becky,
So sorry about that. With the ol' Lyme Disease i get mixed up sometimes. i knew i was addressing Holly but typed your name cuz i think i had responded to your comment as well. i know you are supportive of LGBTQ people! :)
Take care!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/22/2009 4:41 AMHey Adele, I shouldn't be utterly, just taken back by this article but I am. I read the whole thing with my mouth open, with my heart aching that there are people believing this. This has been around for a long time and may not ever go away. That is my statement.
My Question I would love, just love for you to show me these scriptures that have been misinterpreted from the moment they were written? That is, about Homosexuality. Also if you could so kindly give me the right interpretation and where you get your Historical background of the verses and what not, that would great.
I have been hearing about this sort of thing a bit more lately, but haven't come into contact with yet and this is my first time. So I am more then open to hearing and reading where you get that Homosexuality is not wrong, this way I may have a better understanding what and where, you and seems like a whole lot more people are coming from.
If you could email me as I don't check this blog very often and not sure if I will anymore.
Thank you, Theron
Posted by Theron | Posted at 02/22/2009 10:07 PMI am a Christ follower who struggles with pornography, and I find this article disheartening knowing that others will be mislead. I am so glad that Jesus has saved me from myself, but the flesh is still weak, and along with other sins that I commit (not feeding the poor, getting angry at my parents, gluttony, slothfulness, to name a few) pornography is just one. But where does one find anything Jesus said about pornography?
There are many other texts and ways to point to the beautiful coming together of one man and one woman, but, since there seems to be some sort of confusion that Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, or other sexual sins for that matter, I offer the following scripture from Mark 7:
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " -NIV
This was a Jewish audience, and for Jesus to say sexual sins, fornication, or what have you would have been understood as sexual sins. Plural, not a couple, but all sexual sins that the Jewish people had been familiar with. Jesus did not have to give examples of different types of malice and how to know how to control this form of malice compared to that form of malice. All malice is wrong, just as all sexual sin is wrong.
My prayer is that all these unclean items should receive their due time in all of God's kingdom. All, as verse 23 states, not some of these sins needs to be worked on with our Savior, even if it does take a lifetime. I, as well as all who come to Jesus Christ, should be amazed and in awe of His ability to forgive once we have done wrong, and astounded by the grace that He gives us. What a wonderful Savior we have indeed!
Posted by dave | Posted at 02/28/2009 12:35 PMTheron,
i responded to you via email per your request.
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/28/2009 1:08 PMDave,
i am sorry you are disheartened and feel others will be misled. i am saddened that you and others that think along the same lines cannot see that G-D's kingdom is big enough to allow for divergent viewpoints. i respect you difference of opinions and beliefs even though i do not agree with you. You certainly have the freedom to them.
i am happily married and find it a joy everday to grow in my relationship with my wife and with G-D.
i wish you nothing but joy, peace, love and happiness in your life.
G-D's blessings to you!
Warmest Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 02/28/2009 1:12 PMMy church not only has not had a sexual sermon, but we have homosexuals in our congregation. We are all sinners, no matter what the sin is. No one can cast that first stone. Everybody deserves the chance to have a home church that can nurture them, counsel them, and comfort them. Why are some church's taking that away?
Every week we are reminded to reach out our arms to our brothers and sisters around us and embrace them with Christ's love. Give them God's word. Do the deeds we were sent to do. It gets a bit redundant hearing it every week, but pretty soon you get it and do it.
No where do we hear "Tell the gays to go away"
I think I will stay at my church and hear people welcoming each other and praying for each other. We need to so we can stay strong.
Posted by thea | Posted at 03/04/2009 5:53 AMThea,
Thanks for your embracing attitude and loving ALL people! i wish more Christians had your and your churche's attitude. It is very Christ-like!
Thank you for sharing your personal experience.
All the best to you!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 03/04/2009 7:43 AMThanks for the sweeping generalization and pigeon-holing of Evangelicalism. I'm sorry you get mad when people interprete the Bible in ways you don't like. It just seems silly to assume that is the only thing they are about. Posted by outdeep | Posted at 03/27/2009 8:23 AM
Outdeep,
i speak from my personal experiences. i have many conservative evangelical friends who don't agree with me but we can still be friends, have deep conversations, and don't focus on sex. i can agree to disagree with people. i am not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking. It is my observation and personal experience that those who focus on the sex act itself all the time with regards to homosexuality are evangelicals. People are free to interpret the Bible as they see it, all i am asking is that we ALL, including MYSELF, recognize none of us has a monopoly on interpretation and that we don't know everything. Sex is not all evangelicals are about except when it comes to the topic of homosexuality and that was my point. Maybe if you re-read the post you will see that!
Pax and G-D Bless!
Warmest Regards,
Adele
Posted by Existential Punk | Posted at 03/27/2009 8:43 AMI also respectfully disagree with your views, Adele, for many of the same reasons that Holly does. One thing that stood out to me from your comments was the statement that none of your efforts at being healed of your homosexuality worked and so you chose to live into your homosexuality instead (paraphrased). I know of many Christians who have not been healed of their human imperfections, from paralysis and deformities to addictions too numerous to list, yet they accept God's will for their lives and live according to the Bible by the power granted to them, moment by moment, day by day, by the Holy Spirit. Paul himself wrote of his thorn that no amount of prayer would heal. In 2 Corinthians 12 we read: "7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." We don't know what his thorn was, but perhaps we could each substitute our own thorn(s) that God chooses not to heal in His perfect will. Because we are not healed as our limited brains think we should be does not give us permission to interpret scripture differently than it has been for thousands of years. I am motivated to comment not because I judge you or hate you but because I and most of the Christians I know have our own "thorns" to live with. I am also involved in outreach to the poor and am active in a ministry that provides care and counseling to women who are victims of domestic violence and abuse as well as to women who are trying to recover from addictions and prostitution. I say this to you to let you know that I am not an official of the morality police, just another of many Christians who are trying to live by the word of God, whether or not it always suits what I want to do...and often I fail. Thanks to our merciful God for His amazing grace. Posted by Michael | Posted at 03/27/2009 9:56 AM
Wow. from the title, I assumed that this article was going in a different direction. I think the evangelical subculture is particularlly sex-crazed, not just due to its voyeuristic obsession with the sexual sins of others, but an overall preoccupation with sex. I hear of more and more churches taking the seven-day sex challenge or studying 40 days of sex during lent. Christian authors and radio talking heads encourage housewives on how they can keep their husbands pumped up on the sex-induce endorphins they need to be happy and successful - turning women into a mere drug-delivery system. Out of panic over the dwindling population of white evangelicals, youth are being encouraged to get married as young as possible and to immediately start pumping out babies - even if the only motivation to get married is hormones.
It's madness. Perhaps it is an over-reactiion to victorian sexual repressiveness, which was also madness. I place the blame deeper: on a complete loss of ultimate truth and meaning in Christianity resulting from decades of fundamentalism and pragmatism. Christianity has become the religion about nothing. Sexual obsession may just a way to deaden the ontological vaccuum.
Posted by bonhoefwb | Posted at 03/27/2009 12:09 PMI guess by many comments here we are to throw away part of God's commands concerning purity and faithfulness. (or at least ignore them) While we have other issues to be concerned about, the neglect of God's Word concerning the importance of the family for the health of society, the importance of faithfulness, and the importance of Mothers and Fathers to raise children in Godliness in the Nuclear family and in His larger family the Church is vital to all of society. The person raised in a single-parent home is by and far more likely to commit crime and be dysfunctional in every other way.
Marraige isn't about a person's sexual pleasure. Sex, while pleasurable, is given by God to be expressed in ONE faithful, heterosexual, other-honoring, relationship UNDER God to create families for the nurture of children. It's about the best place - BY GOD'S DESIGN - to raise children. We will not bring revival to the church by ignoring God's commands or being silent about them.
This post shows just how Biblically illiterate those calling themselves Christian today are. There is truth. It is important. While we love people in sin, we love them best by lovingly telling them of that sin. The conditions for saving Grace are repentance and faith. Shall we forget the Gospel which calls for holiness of life in the power of the Spirit?
Before someone spouts the false notion that Christians get divorced as much as non-Christians. If you do a little study you will discover that those statistics are built on a self-report - where someone says "I am a Christian". But those studies where behavior is included, such as regular Church attendance, prayer, etc,; those who BEHAVE as Christians get divorced far less.
The "fundamentalists" and "legalistic" and "rigid" Christians many of you abuse in your comments have a divorce rate in the single digits - by behavioral factors.
It seems the only group that can be beat up on - even here - are those who are trying to live out faithfully the commands of Christ. By the way, these people with high spiritual commitment are far from repressed sexually. They, according to all studies, have the highest reported rate of sexual satisfaction - with ONE spouse for life as God commands.
Many of you glory in beating up on your brothers and sisters in Christ and accuse them wrongly of many things. You don't even have the descency to get your facts right. You are the ones tearing apart God's family.
I make no apology. Maybe some of you should apologize to God for disdaining His command - one of the 10 - commandment - if you don't know - concerns sexual purity.
It is ALSO A LIE that these Christians have been uninvolved in other issues. While Christians do not "blow their own horn", most giving to missions work, the poor around the world, aids victims, disasters come from the faithful Christians you despise.
I am all for change and improvement in the Church. We can do better. But it is dishonoring to GOD to treat your brethren in the way many of you do in these posts. Likewise, you dishonor God by endorsing what He says He hates - sin of every kind.
Posted by Peter | Posted at 03/27/2009 12:51 PMAdele,
You are so spot-on in sayin that Evangelicals are sex-obsessed.
I deal in alot of sociologic research. Here's some for ya:
the amount of porn access goes significantly up in Las Vegas hotels when that hotel hosts a Christian event (esp. youth pastors). The amount of porn usage and extra-marital affairs (eg, sexual behaviors) amongst people claiming to be Evangelical Christians is higher than those who do not claim to be so. Oh, and divorce rates are higher among Evangelicals than non-Evangelicals. What is leaking out in the Marriage and Family Counseling literature is that many of those divorces are fueled by sexual obsession, mostly on the part of males hooked on porn and strip clubs...
Oh, by the way... the rate of these things amongst 'pastors' (who are 95% male in America) seems to sift out at the same rate as other Evangelicals...
As with any obsession, the overall portrait of that area of life will be significantly skewed. Evangelicals are sexually frustrated, and so they "kick the gays" to try and vent that dicotomy in their hearts. Meanwhile, the Evangelicals have found internet porn and sneaking into strip clubs as pretty do-able... then sing their hymns nice and loud on Sunday morning next to their spouses...
Time the Evangelical church just shuts it's collective mouths (screaming at everybody else) and works on living in right relationship with G-D and each other... which means major therapy for the sexual obsessive fixation.
Only a healthy and Biblical way of viewing and living sexuality can bring sanity to this insane problem.
hang in there, Adele
crisbaj
Posted by crisbaj | Posted at 03/27/2009 3:44 PMThe divorce rate among Evangelicals is absolutely higher because more evangelicals are getting married. More Evangelicals 'by ratio' still believe in the covenant of marriage and are attempting to hold to it. (I am NOT going to argue at all the definition of marriage. Don't even think about it) Not that Evang. Christians are succeeding but they are willing at least to committ to the idea instead of just 'living together'.
Everyone has a sexual side that can be corrupted. And the Devil does use it to bring us down. There is No sin in loving others. No sin in love! There is however lots of sin involved in everything that people try to consider to be love. Like sex, abuse, manipulation... I could name others. It is based in chemistry and emotions and mental games. Sex surely feels like it is heavenly and it is much like God in it's ability to create. But, it is not true love. True love is almost undefineable unless you are looking at it. Like someone dying in front of you and you are holding there hand and overlooking the smell of crap and medicine to be there for them.
I am a hetero, Evengelical hairdresser and minister. I have had many good friends that were gay. I can not nor will I condemn them when Jesus did not. One of my best friends of my life was gay and I got to watch him die from complications with AIDS. I prayed for him and he made peace with God and asked for forgiveness before he died. Need I explain more?
Humility people... humility.
Love is a verb! People's own actions condemn themselves, what we do and what we don't do... I only know that we all need God equally. We all sin!
I do not believe that homosexuality is okay. That truth really hasn't changed. I only know that I loved my friend with all of my heart. I am reminded of him daily. I loved him (which is NOT a sin) I just didn't have sex with him!
Peace and Blessings to all of you in the name of Jesus. Nick
Posted by Nick | Posted at 03/30/2009 2:52 PM