I agree! I confirm there are at least two. :)
Refreshing...I would have wept but that's not really me. After feeling alone (BTY that makes three!) I've found someone making sense.
For some, like me, this is beyond "refreshing", it's more like reviving.
I most definitely understand this problem of being "free" to explore authenitic Christianity and the social pressures of what others think it means to be a Christian. I had graduated with a BA in Biblical Studies from a fundamentalist university in So Cal and began working on a MA in Theology at Fuller Seminary when my marriage fell apart and I decided to chuck it all almost 20-years ago. I probably would have stayed "in exile" had it not been for the accepting love of a friend that eventually reminded me, as you mentioned in your article, that God can handle the "severe stuff." Over the past three years I've begun exploring what it means for me to follow Jesus and where I might fit in the larger community of believers. My blog (listed above) is very much about the kinds of explorations (on the Creation Narrative and Mythology, for example) that would probably terrify my fellow parishoners were I in a teaching position at my church. Here's to God being able to handle our honest growing pains, even when his followers can't. jbb
met you at npcc....( i'm matthew sweeting's sister....i was trying to hook up barry taylor with my sister...but he was already hooked up)...anyways...great and encouraging writing!....you said that grace was so big that you had to take off the lifejacket...and didnt even know what one could do to take it off....let's hear it for grace.....the questions are getting larger....what if jesus wasn't god...would it make anydifferency? did he die b/c of a blood thirsty God? what the hell kind of god is that anyways? where is the mother? or is god gay?...ie father, son, holyspirit, why are religeous people the biggest assholes? at least if you are gonna be an asshole...dont be religeous and give god a bad name.......anyways brother it was great to have you in nassau and hear of the big grace...keep writing!
Interesting! There are many pastors who would do what you have done if they had a choice. Some stay where they are because we pastors have no other skills that the market place desires.
I don't agree about the whole homosexuality bit... The Bible clearly states that it's wrong. And, Scripture is infallible. It is TRUTH, and it cannot be changed. God is God, and He won't allow His inspired Word to be tampered with to the point that it no longer means what He intended for it to mean. Therefore, when He says that homosexuality is despicable, He means it! :-?
Otherwise, I highly relate to the rest of what you've said here! And, I have to thank you, as I didn't quite know what to call this "feeling" I've had... I've read books by Erwin Raphael McManus and Rob Bell and Steve Brown, and I just LOVE them! I love that they challenge your faith, and remind you that God can't live "in a box"... but that's where we've tried to put Him.
Just because a guy can identify many failings in the church and Christendom, that does not make the guy YODA. Much of the emerging church movement is just liberalism repackaged. Unfortunately Jesus was not as ambigious as Mr. Burke would like Him to be. Jesus dealt and taught many absolutes (ex: Jesus challenged the hypocrisy of the men seeking to stone the woman caught in adultery, but Jesus also told the woman to leave her life of sin). Maybe Spencer Burke is this great philosopher and deep thinker, or maybe he is just lazy, doesn't like authority or har dwork, and thinks he has found a way to justify his self indulgent bohemian lifestyle. I think it is the latter.
You know, I don't think I could say that homosexuality is not a sin. But to read this whole article and pick out the 2 sentences about homosexuality is a big part of what I have a problem with in today's church. Today's church is all about what we don't agree with and not enough about what we do agree with. And I don't think the author is even saying he doesn't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality. He's saying we need to re-evaluate our stance on things every once in a while to make sure it's really what God intended. There are a lot of churches who would deny people membership because they are homosexual or in a lot of cases, because they're divorced. What about the pride that runs rampant in our churches? What about all the overweight preachers out there? I'm pretty sure gluttony is a sin. What about gossip? If there's a soap box to get on about a specific sin, then we need to equally condemn everyone. Jesus didn't do that. He spoke much more harshly to those prideful pharisees who thought they had it all together than he did to that woman caught in adultery. And he said he did not condemn her. He was asking her to go and sin no more, I believe, because He wants the best for us, and I'm sure he knew that sleeping around was not best for her. Well, I've gone on much longer than I intended, so I will leave it at that.
i love and agree with the spirit of grace. His grace IS sufficient for me. And love covers a multitude of offenses, which includes judging others. The thing im afraid of is those of this generation that have had a fresh awakening of Gods grace and great commision will fall into the same trap of holier than thou judging only from the other side. Now we are divided once again and the devil succeeds again. There are those that take every word from Mclaren and McManus as scripture just as bad as Dobsonites do. Lets show our fruit (by their fruit you shall know them) and let those that want to judge answer to the great Judge on that day. Division in the church has happened since the church was birthed, nothing new under the sun, just a perfect God using imperfect man, perfecting him to take part in His perfect plan. We will all have to give an account for what we as individuals did with the gospel, with our time, and with our possessions. Speak the truth in love, and let God deal with hearts. Easier said than done I know. I KNOW. Ive been guilty more than once. ,Surprise I am a fallen wretch. But God says “if you seek me with all of your heart I will be found.” “ If your lacking wisdom, ask and I will give graciously to all who will receive.” If we ask and hold onto Godly wisdom, not one mans wisdom or ones interpretation of the scriptures, we can rest that His Grace is sufficient for me. Don’t give me a new God and new scriptures, just fresh wind, fresh fire.
You made a wise decision. Having been raised in American evangelicalism, I've had the same doubts about its cultural dressings. I felt we were putting too much energy into converting people to our form of Christianity instead of leading them to Jesus Christ.
Spenser- I enjoyed meeting you at Revolution (I'm the dad of the girl in the red dreds). Keep putting it our there! The sincere church people with their panties in a bunch over what the Bible says about homosexuals might just learn more about the heart of our Father by concentrating more on our call to love ALL of God's children, which includes women, slaves, homosexuals, men and "Christians". — Al
It's always encouraging to discover other people who are having struggles similar to mine. I was a pastor in a relatively liberal denomination for 25 years, and finally just couldn't do it any more. Even in the left wing of the Christian church, some questions just aren't allowed - like questions concerning the nature of scripture and the nature of Jesus, called the Christ. I stayed away from church altogether for six months, but found that I really missed the community, and have now "gone home" and am able to accept the outward message of the faith as simply one way to humanly express the unexpressable. In other words, I don't have to believe in virgin births in mangers in order to be transformed by the true message of the Christmas story (whatever that is.) It has been very refreshing.
I don't get the problem with asking the kinds of questions you bring up. Don't you read your Bible? You know people in any church will at some point be a source of disappointment and discouragement; no church is perfect. Why rail against it so much? Read your Bible, trust in Jesus, put your faith in Him alone and don't get so hung up on all this crap you write about. Good grief! (To quote the famous 20th century philosopher CB)
I relate to your struggle, as I'm wrestling with similar issues. However, the challenge in today's evangelical community is simply that every idea, doctrine, and teaching is a matter of opinion. Playing at the edges won't fix the roots of the Church.
See Matthew Gallatin's Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells for a fuller description of this.
You are right, we should be strong enough in our faith to be able to ask the hard questions that the culture is demanding - universalism, homosexuality, end times theology, drinking, etc. Yet there is a difference between legitimately asking the questions and illegitimately and prematurely giving ascent to questionable practices.
Our generation (I'm 31) has exchanged wisdom for cynicism and called it an even trade. We know how to poke holes in the practices and ideals of others (whether we are right or not), but we do not know what truth is, how to find it, or whether it is right to even declare it.
You and I have a lot of growing up to do. Meanwhile, I'll take the words of Christ over the words of both James Dobson and Brian McLaren.
I have to say that I am very troubled at some of the things that I have read on this web site. I wish I could ask you some questions like; Do you believe in God? Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God? And if you do, why would you pick and chose what parts of it that you believe, and what parts are up for "modern interpretation"?
May I suggest something? Sit down with your Bible, and pray that God open your heart and your mind, and start reading. Start in John, or wherever you want, but get back to what God says in his Word.
It's not just some outdated book. It talks about things that go on right now in our time. Their customs and traditions may have been a little different, but maybe that is not all that bad.
I'll be praying for you.
As with everything that I read on the internet I try to keep an open mind. I believe that the bible is the true word of God and that we, as christians, are to live our lives according to His word. I find it odd that out off 66 books the two things you pull out are homosexuality and slavery(I am african-american).
I too agree that the church has lost it's true reason for being in existance to begin with. This has nothing to do with God or the bible. It has to do with man and his greed! I live in West Michigan and there are many churches here. You could say one on almost every corner. Many, unfortunately, are born out of anger. Anger that is form by a disagreement of some sort between the ministerial staff which causes one person too leave the church and take the few in agreement with. This causes division in the body of Christ. This is one reason unbelievers struggle with listening to what believers have to say. Instead of letting our lights shine or being epistles read of men we are busy building mega, high tech ministries with unreachable pastors who drive the latest model vehicles (if they still drive themselves) that cost more than the average starter home, who are surrounded by bodyguards instead of disciples. Forgive me, nothing personal against ministers. I was married to one who left his family for a woman in the church. Of course it was me and my children who moved our memberships while he and his new wife stayed on staff. Yes, I survive! It was the love of Christ and my bible that got me through. My greatest concern is the lost souls in the community. As of yet I do not know of any piece of technological equipment that will go out into the community and evangelize while we sit on our butts in the pews/chairs watching the Word of God scroll down a $10,000 screen.
Romans 1, 1Corinthians 6, Levitcus 18. It's really pretty clear.
I like to think that the emergent movement is not about people running away from denominations to start their own. Yes, it happens, but if the major denominations allowed an environment where questions could be freely asked and discussed and prayed upon...well, maybe it wouldn't. The goal is not to bring about "division in the body of Christ"...it is to get denominations to let go of the pride of being the "biggest", "fastest growing" church in town. Yes, you can think in terms of seats in pews, and think that because less are filled each month that people are falling away from the church. The question is this...what church are they falling away from? The brick and mortar building that you call the church? Shouldn't the Church should be seen as much bigger. Shouldn't Christians feel that they are all members of the same Church?
The problem is that many churches don't allow questions. Just because a person questions does not make them a heretic. The Bible is there to answer our questions, correct? So doesn't it stand to reason that we as followers of Jesus should in turn be asking those questions? It's only through the asking of questions that an answer can truly be found. To coin a t-shirt/bumper sticker slogan "Jesus is the answer"...so why can't we as the Church ask the questions?
As for homosexuality...my place is not to judge. That authority belongs to someone much bigger than me, much bigger than the biggest mega-church that man could build. I think the emergent movement is about remembering our place, that we are not perfect, that Jesus is a living part of us that did not abandon us...yes, he died for us, but he is by no means dead. He wants us to question what we see around us as he did. He wants us to connect with others on an authentic level...whether they are a follower or not. My gay friends are wonderful people. I would never cast them off to appease a church. I don't think that it's a very Christian thing to do. I think it's a shame that many people think it is.
I am not a pastor and cannot specifically relate to that situation. I am another who is on a journey to discover what it means to follow Christ. It has been through doubts and questions that I have grown the most. Towing some denominational line gets a person nowhere. I have never followed the "Christian Fads" (ie. ... Prayer of Jabez, 40 Days of Purpose, WWJD and others) but have been looked upon as out of synch with the church when I did not go along with whatever was the latest "thing".
You speak of things that many of us not in leadership see and sense about the problems in the church. I applaud you for speaking out.
I love your garage office!
Count me as another one who feels God is doing a new thing --- connecting many of us who spent time as faithful servants in old modes/paradigms of "church" and find that there is more within our calling. My 30 years as pastor and 20 years as Ecumenical Executive and time on the Nat'l staff of my denomination were good years however, I am finding that I resonate with much of your story and want to join with you and others to continue my spiritual journey seeking to be open to the 'new thing' that God is doing today --- the times they are a-changin' still seeing through a glass darkly...but knowing the power of the internet and technology connects all of God's creation in new ways!
Peace and grace with justice for all!
Thanks for the opportunity to join this community.
max aka ORcoastGEEZER
There's no question that the church needs to make some changes. Sadly, in my opinion, the most important of those changes, need to be made in the exact opposite direction of the "Emergant Church" movement. Questioning an epistemology based on foundationalism, even a correspondance view of reality, brings you to a place where you can read Romans and equivocate about the clear meaning of the text, and then - fully aiborne after stepping on the banana peel of no absolutes, grasp such a moronic notions that Paul was opposed merely to those who are not truly homosexual, but acting out as one, hence, not living according to his or her true nature. McLaren, et al, are disgruntled malcontents who are liberal in virtually every aspect of their theology and politics, who had to create a safe haven for themselves and their ilk. Well meaning, well educated, often insightful in regard to what's wrong in the church, but as inept at calling out a solution as Saul seeking out the advise from the occult as a remedy. The very root of the problem in my view is the departing from the centrality and authority of scripture. Without that external stnadard relativism gives way to pernicious heresies. I thinkg some good will come frmo the movement in such areas as the hypocristy toward those that are gay, but sadly, when they start equivocating on the clear meaning of scriputre, their compassion turns to the blind leadin the blind.
jim golding
Thanks for your honesty. I am also a journeyer and have grappled with / continue to grapple with the issues you raise (and many more). Through a number of initiatives under the umbrella name of Spirited Exchanges (www.spiritedexchanges.org.nz) I have had the privilege of accompanying many others on the same journey and tried to provide relevant resources. For some this will be seen as heretical but for many it has enabled them to rebuild a faith that has currency for them.
The faith package that many of us have received and taken on may have served some of us us well for some time, but has now ceased to work for us. For others it has been more like a strait jacket that has constrained their ability to live fully and I believe it has diminished their personhood. Quite the opposite to what I thought God was about.
For many of us we have now needed to deconstruct this package, sift through it and reconstitute it to contain the things that are life giving and grace filling. Jesus said "I have come to bring life, life in all its fullness." And he enjoyed being able to provide more wine at the Cana wedding. What does this fully abundant life mean?
I enjoyed your book, Making Sense of Church. Thanks.
I am a mainline protestant Christian who grew up in a liberal academia-honoring lapsed Catholic family environment, where religion was tolerable as long as it stayed consistent with secular liberal social justice parameters. Outside of those parameters, religion was oppressive and scary and un-American. I see the positives and the subtle hypocracies of progressives and conservatives who make secular politics their religion. I offer the following for thought. Questioning homosexuality on Biblical grounds is not hate. Hating homosexuals is not Christian. Jesus' very existence was a political inconvenience to the secular world and a theat to the religious power base; however, Jesus never taught that one should strive for secular political power over others. As for the progressives in my mainline church, I think they are too eager to claim Scripture is a series of metaphors, instead of actually learning the Scripture and the writings of the Church Fathers. I have come to learn that forgiving and praying for someone with whom one is in conflict is a tough and worthy path to understanding grace. Peace and grace to you!
Wow - talk about catharsis!! Thank you!! I have walked the same path and I applaud your forum and willingness to step out beyond the "accepted". I have always been amazed at the number of ministry hirelings who are employed by "the church"...doing the job of "the church" so that "the church" can have a neat, clean presentation of itself. Praise God for the awakening that we see the Spirit bringing to the real "church" so that we too can live with and relate to the woman at the well.
I haven't read the rest of your site (just this article), but I really like the sound of this. I would like to be at a church where people think the way you think, where questioning is okay. However, I'm wary of the emerging church movement precisely because of an issue I observed in the comments to this very article. I'm skeptical that a movement that is still linked to evangelicalism can offer me the freedom I seek, because there are still people (for instance, in these comments) who say things like, "You can't say that homosexuality isn't wrong, because the Bible says it is," because they hold strictly to basic evangelical presuppositions about theology. Even a few years ago I would have valued that, but now I feel a hard-won freedom (which I haven't even quite finished winning, so it still feels fragile) from thinking about things in certain ways just because evangelical orthodoxy tells me to, and I shy away from anything that would seek to denigrate that freedom. So right now I feel more comfortable in an Anglican church, even though traditional worship forms do not touch me.
I, like others, tend to agree and disagree with your position. I agree that the Church is missing something as a whole. I agree that we who should be united are divided on many fronts. I agree that some megachurches are missing the point of ministry, investing in more building space instead of investing into the community.
What I disagree on is what I am perceiving to be your stance on Scripture, though what that is, I am not quite certain. I can see that somehow you feel that Scripture relating to the sinfulness of homosexuality is invalid. What I am unsure of is why you feel that way. If it is because you feel as if it is no longer socially relative, I have to wonder where we stop in evaluating Scripture in such a way. Would we begin to feel as if Jesus Christ is not the only way to the Father, though in the Bible He says He is, just because society is leaning that this may no longer be the truth? Challenge incorrect theology! I agree wholeheartedly with that. But I do not see how one can challenge clear teaching of Scripture. It's starts getting into the miry muck of relativism where there is no escape. One of the ways I view it is like this. Let's say I make the observation that the sky is blue. One could then reply, "Only to you. I'm color blind, so it isn't blue to me." We would then have to start redefining how we say things. The sky is the color commonly referred to in the English language as blue. "Ah," but then the other side of the debate may then say, "I cannot see blue. So blue does not exist. Therefore, I say the sky is green."
What I mean is, where do we stop with relativism, and start looking at things objectively? And then, of course, I've heard the homosexuality as a person's inherent nature. In otherwords, God made me this way, so it must be okay. But you have to realize that, if we are to believe the what the Bible says holds any weight, we are all born inherently sinful. We might as well start justifying the fact that we are born selfish, hateful, prideful, and greedy as the way God made us and stop trying to modify our behavior.
My personal stance on homosexuality is this: Being a homosexual does not, in and of itself, warrant a person hell. Being a SINNER, separated from God, marks that as our destination. I think that a Christian can struggle with homosexuality, and that does not change the nature of their Christianity any more so than the fact that I struggle with selfishness, gluttony, and pride does for me. The problem is, we, as people, are masters of self-justification. We don't like to be wrong, and we try to prove to others that when we aren't. And it doesn't matter what issue it is we try to justify. If we are going to hold the Bible up as our objective truth of things, when their is a conflict between what we think, and what it says, we're wrong.
Unless you want to get back to parsing through what the bible really says and what it doesn't. But when you start questioning basic, clear cut things, not grey issues, but things it says are clearly wrong, then how can you believe anything the Bible has to say on anything? Why even be a Christian?
My other contention is this: You mentioned the communion section in 1 Corinthians as a statement saying unbelievers shouldn't do it. And though I agree that none believers shouldn't do it because it's meaningless to them, I do not think that the text referring to the judgement of those who eat and drink without checking their hearts referrs to unbelievers. You've gone to seminary, and I could be wrong, but I've always understood that the text was talking about those believers who had broken their fellowship with the Lord through unrepentant sin and hardened hearts. It was a form of discipline from God, but no more harsh than a parent calling a child home because it kept getting into trouble away from it.
I've belabored my point, I'm sure. Wiser men than I have engaged in this argument. My words are not about to make a difference. But I wanted to add my two cents. And I'd be open to a discussion about them should you, or any other person reading it choose to engage in one with me.
In Him, Joshua Campbell
I'm all for asking questions that will push our relationship with Christ further and deeper, but why ask questions about stuff that the Bible clearly speaks on in an absolute way? That's like a kid asking for a cookie and Mom says no...so the kid says well my version of reality is that I should have a cookie so let's question whether or not Mom's right to say no to me. She's Mom and she should be listened to and to disrespect her by rebelling would be anti-Christ!! Maybe not the best word picture but you know what I'm getting at. I'm all for postmodern thought and questions but the endless possibilities of question after question after question is sickening. It's like beating a horse after he's dead! If God said it, why can't that be good enough for you?! Or maybe I'm misunderstanding...maybe God didn't say it right, or maybe he didn't mean it the way He said it, or maybe He changed His mind now that it's 2007 and a bunch of spoiled rotten brats who don't like what He said figure they can question His authority!!! I think there is a lot to be gained about rethinking how the church meets the needs of a dying world and how we evangelize and questions aren't a bad idea there. But, if this movement is going to continue to question God and make a mockery out of what He did and said then stop the world, I want to get off. Enough already!!!!
I belong to a Church whose vision is to simply be Real, Relevant and Revolutionary, as we do life, with God, together. That vision is based on solid believes that include that the Bible is the inspired, infallible, authoritative Word of God, without error in the original language, and the believe that the Church consists of all those who truly believe in Jesus Christ and His atoning death, and who trust in Him as their Lord and Savior.
If you choose which parts of the Bible who want to follow instead of it all I believe you are choosing to follow a 'plastic' or 'dashboard' Christ; basing your salvation on your own believes and interpretations. I feel Churches that view actions defined as sinful in the Bible as acceptable or normal behavior are following the world, not Gods inspired word.
This does not mean that I am judging the person nor would I turn from them. I believe anyone will be welcome in my Church; we are a body of broken people. We will help each other in dealing with sin to turn away from it. We will not celebrate it and accept it. That includes gossip, greed, homosexuality, anger, spiritual bondage, addiction and on and on the list could go.
So...I do not agree with all of your views but I agree with some that you say are needed in the body of Christ. Thankfully my Church is doing a lot of them!
As I continue to be a part of this web site I will do what I do with all teachings whether it is web-based, a bible study, a sermon, a book, a TV show, an article or a discussion; look to the scriptures to ensure it is God based before I accept it and integrate it into my life. For the great items on this site that are it will be another tool to increase my knowledge which will in turn deepen my faith. You really limit your own growth if just go to Sunday services or look for information only in your comfort zones.
The whole matter of homosexuality..........." forgiven when they turn away by the blood of Lamb" ........being approved by the church..." is part of the Whole sin condition repackaged. One drifting pastor spoke to us one Sunday that we needed to consider that the sin of Sodom and Gommorah wasn't necessarily homosexuality but... inhospitality...!! Now Sodom had an abundance of sin problems but to erase homosexuality from it as a cause for its destruction is ludicrous. It seems that carnal man has a need to make God into his own image. It is the absence of the Holy Spirit that causes our leaders to bring an alien message unknown certainly to Paul and the rest of the writers of the New Testament. The good part of the emerging movement is a drift......some drifting a little faster than others ....from the shoreline of sound biblical doctrine. The teachers of the drift cannot reveal too much of their agenda so as to scare their potential targets away.. the youth being the most conpicuous targets... but sweeten their words with compassion, transparency, relevency to slowly introduce their error so as to lull their hearers into agreement. They want to reinvent the bible, its teachings, and christianity. When I was became a christian when I was 24 years old,,Jesus of Nazareth,the One who died and rose from the dead 2000 years ago, revealed Himself as all loving,compassionate toward my sin , and powerful but yet Holy. What I believed before I became a christian didn't matter anymore... it was the revelation of Jesus and His Word that was the most important thing. He came to set the captives free. That includes adulterers, theives, murderers, homosexuals, gossips, liars, slanderers etc.. just like you and me.. Men and women have been marytred.. giving their lives for that Word throughout history.One thing you can be sure........ Jesus was not a compromiser....
Wow...how refreshing to not feel alone in this journey from Evangelical Christian to something else...something more?! Your story touched me as it is precisely the kind of path I am on, having been raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, college, and church, yet in search of something that feels more real and connecting. Thanks for your ministry!
What a helpful essay this is! It reminds me of Paul's comment in 1 Cor 8, as translated by Eugene Peterson in The Message: "We sometimes tend to think we know all we need to know to answer these kinds of questions-- but sometimes our humble hearts can help us more than our proud minds. We never really know enough until we recognize that God alone knows it all."
So many take issue over "the clear meaning of the text," unaware that it may only be clear because of our passing worldview. Homosexuality is a great example - all four of the main passages used to condemn it have significant hermeneutic problems; the "clear meaning of the text" is not very clear at all. But it is so easy to believe that it is, perhaps because it's one of those "everybody knows" issues, the questioning of which brings more scorn than thought (as a few of these comments demonstrate).
Truly, "sometimes our humble hearts can help us more than our proud minds." Thanks for an excellent, honest piece.
"Similarly, there was a time when women were prevented from voting or owning property-a position the church heartily endorsed. Throughout history, Christians have been eager to shackle women both in and out of the church. Given a less-than-stellar track record, is it really so heretical to think that the evangelical church may just be wrong about homosexuality as well? I mean, isn't it wise to at least ask the "What if?" question from time to time, if for no other reason than to test our contemporary application of Scripture"
Yes, Romans 1, 1Corinthians 6, Levitcus 18 "IS" very clear, how can we pick and choose on what we should beleive in the bible and what we shouldn't???
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. NIV
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Sexual Immorality 12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. NIV
I hate to be the one who says this, but the stuff you wrote Spencer Burke, is the most Anti-Christian, Anti-Bible and Anti-God statments I have ever read on a so-called Christian website !
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Actually, that's not quite true. I'm in the garage at the moment. I turned it into a make-shift office a little over a year ago. For a long time, my wife Lisa and I shared a nook in our living room. Her P.R. files were on one side, my old pastor's stuff on the other. In the corner, was a giant papier mache tree that we made together for our son. We thought it would be a cool place to read with him someday. Anyway, one day last year we finally got tired of competing for desk space. With every other room in the house spoken for, there was no place to go but out.
I agree! I confirm there are at least two. :) Posted by Eng Khor | Posted at 05/10/2006 8:44 PM
Refreshing...I would have wept but that's not really me. After feeling alone (BTY that makes three!) I've found someone making sense. Posted by Emily Denmark McGee | Posted at 06/05/2006 1:23 PM
For some, like me, this is beyond "refreshing", it's more like reviving. Posted by BeforeTheMast | Posted at 07/13/2006 2:27 AM
I most definitely understand this problem of being "free" to explore authenitic Christianity and the social pressures of what others think it means to be a Christian. I had graduated with a BA in Biblical Studies from a fundamentalist university in So Cal and began working on a MA in Theology at Fuller Seminary when my marriage fell apart and I decided to chuck it all almost 20-years ago. I probably would have stayed "in exile" had it not been for the accepting love of a friend that eventually reminded me, as you mentioned in your article, that God can handle the "severe stuff." Over the past three years I've begun exploring what it means for me to follow Jesus and where I might fit in the larger community of believers. My blog (listed above) is very much about the kinds of explorations (on the Creation Narrative and Mythology, for example) that would probably terrify my fellow parishoners were I in a teaching position at my church. Here's to God being able to handle our honest growing pains, even when his followers can't. jbb Posted by joebeebee | Posted at 07/21/2006 6:34 PM
met you at npcc....( i'm matthew sweeting's sister....i was trying to hook up barry taylor with my sister...but he was already hooked up)...anyways...great and encouraging writing!....you said that grace was so big that you had to take off the lifejacket...and didnt even know what one could do to take it off....let's hear it for grace.....the questions are getting larger....what if jesus wasn't god...would it make anydifferency? did he die b/c of a blood thirsty God? what the hell kind of god is that anyways? where is the mother? or is god gay?...ie father, son, holyspirit, why are religeous people the biggest assholes? at least if you are gonna be an asshole...dont be religeous and give god a bad name.......anyways brother it was great to have you in nassau and hear of the big grace...keep writing! Posted by deborah sweeting talens | Posted at 07/30/2006 11:34 AM
Interesting! There are many pastors who would do what you have done if they had a choice. Some stay where they are because we pastors have no other skills that the market place desires. Posted by Paul hobbs | Posted at 08/02/2006 9:32 PM
I don't agree about the whole homosexuality bit... The Bible clearly states that it's wrong. And, Scripture is infallible. It is TRUTH, and it cannot be changed. God is God, and He won't allow His inspired Word to be tampered with to the point that it no longer means what He intended for it to mean. Therefore, when He says that homosexuality is despicable, He means it! :-?
Otherwise, I highly relate to the rest of what you've said here! And, I have to thank you, as I didn't quite know what to call this "feeling" I've had... I've read books by Erwin Raphael McManus and Rob Bell and Steve Brown, and I just LOVE them! I love that they challenge your faith, and remind you that God can't live "in a box"... but that's where we've tried to put Him.
Posted by mizbooks | Posted at 08/03/2006 1:21 PMJust because a guy can identify many failings in the church and Christendom, that does not make the guy YODA. Much of the emerging church movement is just liberalism repackaged. Unfortunately Jesus was not as ambigious as Mr. Burke would like Him to be. Jesus dealt and taught many absolutes (ex: Jesus challenged the hypocrisy of the men seeking to stone the woman caught in adultery, but Jesus also told the woman to leave her life of sin). Maybe Spencer Burke is this great philosopher and deep thinker, or maybe he is just lazy, doesn't like authority or har dwork, and thinks he has found a way to justify his self indulgent bohemian lifestyle. I think it is the latter. Posted by Rod | Posted at 08/26/2006 9:55 PM
You know, I don't think I could say that homosexuality is not a sin. But to read this whole article and pick out the 2 sentences about homosexuality is a big part of what I have a problem with in today's church. Today's church is all about what we don't agree with and not enough about what we do agree with. And I don't think the author is even saying he doesn't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality. He's saying we need to re-evaluate our stance on things every once in a while to make sure it's really what God intended. There are a lot of churches who would deny people membership because they are homosexual or in a lot of cases, because they're divorced. What about the pride that runs rampant in our churches? What about all the overweight preachers out there? I'm pretty sure gluttony is a sin. What about gossip? If there's a soap box to get on about a specific sin, then we need to equally condemn everyone. Jesus didn't do that. He spoke much more harshly to those prideful pharisees who thought they had it all together than he did to that woman caught in adultery. And he said he did not condemn her. He was asking her to go and sin no more, I believe, because He wants the best for us, and I'm sure he knew that sleeping around was not best for her. Well, I've gone on much longer than I intended, so I will leave it at that. Posted by Brian Howard | Posted at 09/01/2006 10:21 PM
i love and agree with the spirit of grace. His grace IS sufficient for me. And love covers a multitude of offenses, which includes judging others. The thing im afraid of is those of this generation that have had a fresh awakening of Gods grace and great commision will fall into the same trap of holier than thou judging only from the other side. Now we are divided once again and the devil succeeds again. There are those that take every word from Mclaren and McManus as scripture just as bad as Dobsonites do. Lets show our fruit (by their fruit you shall know them) and let those that want to judge answer to the great Judge on that day. Division in the church has happened since the church was birthed, nothing new under the sun, just a perfect God using imperfect man, perfecting him to take part in His perfect plan. We will all have to give an account for what we as individuals did with the gospel, with our time, and with our possessions. Speak the truth in love, and let God deal with hearts. Easier said than done I know. I KNOW. Ive been guilty more than once. ,Surprise I am a fallen wretch. But God says “if you seek me with all of your heart I will be found.” “ If your lacking wisdom, ask and I will give graciously to all who will receive.” If we ask and hold onto Godly wisdom, not one mans wisdom or ones interpretation of the scriptures, we can rest that His Grace is sufficient for me. Don’t give me a new God and new scriptures, just fresh wind, fresh fire. Posted by Justin | Posted at 09/18/2006 1:20 PM
You made a wise decision. Having been raised in American evangelicalism, I've had the same doubts about its cultural dressings. I felt we were putting too much energy into converting people to our form of Christianity instead of leading them to Jesus Christ. Posted by Gospel Witness | Posted at 11/01/2006 5:34 AM
Spenser- I enjoyed meeting you at Revolution (I'm the dad of the girl in the red dreds). Keep putting it our there! The sincere church people with their panties in a bunch over what the Bible says about homosexuals might just learn more about the heart of our Father by concentrating more on our call to love ALL of God's children, which includes women, slaves, homosexuals, men and "Christians". — Al Posted by Al Doyle | Posted at 11/08/2006 9:58 AM
It's always encouraging to discover other people who are having struggles similar to mine. I was a pastor in a relatively liberal denomination for 25 years, and finally just couldn't do it any more. Even in the left wing of the Christian church, some questions just aren't allowed - like questions concerning the nature of scripture and the nature of Jesus, called the Christ. I stayed away from church altogether for six months, but found that I really missed the community, and have now "gone home" and am able to accept the outward message of the faith as simply one way to humanly express the unexpressable. In other words, I don't have to believe in virgin births in mangers in order to be transformed by the true message of the Christmas story (whatever that is.) It has been very refreshing. Posted by John Tarrant | Posted at 11/16/2006 11:10 AM
I don't get the problem with asking the kinds of questions you bring up. Don't you read your Bible? You know people in any church will at some point be a source of disappointment and discouragement; no church is perfect. Why rail against it so much? Read your Bible, trust in Jesus, put your faith in Him alone and don't get so hung up on all this crap you write about. Good grief! (To quote the famous 20th century philosopher CB) Posted by Greg Bade | Posted at 11/28/2006 8:55 PM
I relate to your struggle, as I'm wrestling with similar issues. However, the challenge in today's evangelical community is simply that every idea, doctrine, and teaching is a matter of opinion. Playing at the edges won't fix the roots of the Church.
See Matthew Gallatin's Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells for a fuller description of this.
Posted by David Roberts | Posted at 01/01/2007 6:53 AMYou are right, we should be strong enough in our faith to be able to ask the hard questions that the culture is demanding - universalism, homosexuality, end times theology, drinking, etc. Yet there is a difference between legitimately asking the questions and illegitimately and prematurely giving ascent to questionable practices.
Our generation (I'm 31) has exchanged wisdom for cynicism and called it an even trade. We know how to poke holes in the practices and ideals of others (whether we are right or not), but we do not know what truth is, how to find it, or whether it is right to even declare it.
You and I have a lot of growing up to do. Meanwhile, I'll take the words of Christ over the words of both James Dobson and Brian McLaren.
Posted by Matt Johnson | Posted at 01/11/2007 7:39 AMI have to say that I am very troubled at some of the things that I have read on this web site. I wish I could ask you some questions like; Do you believe in God? Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God? And if you do, why would you pick and chose what parts of it that you believe, and what parts are up for "modern interpretation"?
May I suggest something? Sit down with your Bible, and pray that God open your heart and your mind, and start reading. Start in John, or wherever you want, but get back to what God says in his Word.
It's not just some outdated book. It talks about things that go on right now in our time. Their customs and traditions may have been a little different, but maybe that is not all that bad.
I'll be praying for you.
Posted by sara williams | Posted at 01/31/2007 9:49 PMAs with everything that I read on the internet I try to keep an open mind. I believe that the bible is the true word of God and that we, as christians, are to live our lives according to His word. I find it odd that out off 66 books the two things you pull out are homosexuality and slavery(I am african-american).
I too agree that the church has lost it's true reason for being in existance to begin with. This has nothing to do with God or the bible. It has to do with man and his greed! I live in West Michigan and there are many churches here. You could say one on almost every corner. Many, unfortunately, are born out of anger. Anger that is form by a disagreement of some sort between the ministerial staff which causes one person too leave the church and take the few in agreement with. This causes division in the body of Christ. This is one reason unbelievers struggle with listening to what believers have to say. Instead of letting our lights shine or being epistles read of men we are busy building mega, high tech ministries with unreachable pastors who drive the latest model vehicles (if they still drive themselves) that cost more than the average starter home, who are surrounded by bodyguards instead of disciples. Forgive me, nothing personal against ministers. I was married to one who left his family for a woman in the church. Of course it was me and my children who moved our memberships while he and his new wife stayed on staff. Yes, I survive! It was the love of Christ and my bible that got me through. My greatest concern is the lost souls in the community. As of yet I do not know of any piece of technological equipment that will go out into the community and evangelize while we sit on our butts in the pews/chairs watching the Word of God scroll down a $10,000 screen.
Posted by G. J. Riley | Posted at 02/15/2007 7:34 AMRomans 1, 1Corinthians 6, Levitcus 18. It's really pretty clear. Posted by Chris | Posted at 02/17/2007 12:27 PM
I like to think that the emergent movement is not about people running away from denominations to start their own. Yes, it happens, but if the major denominations allowed an environment where questions could be freely asked and discussed and prayed upon...well, maybe it wouldn't. The goal is not to bring about "division in the body of Christ"...it is to get denominations to let go of the pride of being the "biggest", "fastest growing" church in town. Yes, you can think in terms of seats in pews, and think that because less are filled each month that people are falling away from the church. The question is this...what church are they falling away from? The brick and mortar building that you call the church? Shouldn't the Church should be seen as much bigger. Shouldn't Christians feel that they are all members of the same Church?
The problem is that many churches don't allow questions. Just because a person questions does not make them a heretic. The Bible is there to answer our questions, correct? So doesn't it stand to reason that we as followers of Jesus should in turn be asking those questions? It's only through the asking of questions that an answer can truly be found. To coin a t-shirt/bumper sticker slogan "Jesus is the answer"...so why can't we as the Church ask the questions?
As for homosexuality...my place is not to judge. That authority belongs to someone much bigger than me, much bigger than the biggest mega-church that man could build. I think the emergent movement is about remembering our place, that we are not perfect, that Jesus is a living part of us that did not abandon us...yes, he died for us, but he is by no means dead. He wants us to question what we see around us as he did. He wants us to connect with others on an authentic level...whether they are a follower or not. My gay friends are wonderful people. I would never cast them off to appease a church. I don't think that it's a very Christian thing to do. I think it's a shame that many people think it is.
Posted by Simon Sherman | Posted at 03/29/2007 11:57 AMI am not a pastor and cannot specifically relate to that situation. I am another who is on a journey to discover what it means to follow Christ. It has been through doubts and questions that I have grown the most. Towing some denominational line gets a person nowhere. I have never followed the "Christian Fads" (ie. ... Prayer of Jabez, 40 Days of Purpose, WWJD and others) but have been looked upon as out of synch with the church when I did not go along with whatever was the latest "thing".
You speak of things that many of us not in leadership see and sense about the problems in the church. I applaud you for speaking out.
Posted by Frank | Posted at 04/03/2007 2:55 AMI love your garage office!
Count me as another one who feels God is doing a new thing --- connecting many of us who spent time as faithful servants in old modes/paradigms of "church" and find that there is more within our calling. My 30 years as pastor and 20 years as Ecumenical Executive and time on the Nat'l staff of my denomination were good years however, I am finding that I resonate with much of your story and want to join with you and others to continue my spiritual journey seeking to be open to the 'new thing' that God is doing today --- the times they are a-changin' still seeing through a glass darkly...but knowing the power of the internet and technology connects all of God's creation in new ways!
Peace and grace with justice for all!
Posted by Max Glenn | Posted at 06/07/2007 9:53 AMThanks for the opportunity to join this community.
max aka ORcoastGEEZER
Posted by Max Glenn | Posted at 06/07/2007 9:56 AMThere's no question that the church needs to make some changes. Sadly, in my opinion, the most important of those changes, need to be made in the exact opposite direction of the "Emergant Church" movement. Questioning an epistemology based on foundationalism, even a correspondance view of reality, brings you to a place where you can read Romans and equivocate about the clear meaning of the text, and then - fully aiborne after stepping on the banana peel of no absolutes, grasp such a moronic notions that Paul was opposed merely to those who are not truly homosexual, but acting out as one, hence, not living according to his or her true nature. McLaren, et al, are disgruntled malcontents who are liberal in virtually every aspect of their theology and politics, who had to create a safe haven for themselves and their ilk. Well meaning, well educated, often insightful in regard to what's wrong in the church, but as inept at calling out a solution as Saul seeking out the advise from the occult as a remedy. The very root of the problem in my view is the departing from the centrality and authority of scripture. Without that external stnadard relativism gives way to pernicious heresies. I thinkg some good will come frmo the movement in such areas as the hypocristy toward those that are gay, but sadly, when they start equivocating on the clear meaning of scriputre, their compassion turns to the blind leadin the blind.
jim golding
Posted by jim golding | Posted at 08/21/2007 5:50 PMThanks for your honesty. I am also a journeyer and have grappled with / continue to grapple with the issues you raise (and many more). Through a number of initiatives under the umbrella name of Spirited Exchanges (www.spiritedexchanges.org.nz) I have had the privilege of accompanying many others on the same journey and tried to provide relevant resources. For some this will be seen as heretical but for many it has enabled them to rebuild a faith that has currency for them.
The faith package that many of us have received and taken on may have served some of us us well for some time, but has now ceased to work for us. For others it has been more like a strait jacket that has constrained their ability to live fully and I believe it has diminished their personhood. Quite the opposite to what I thought God was about.
For many of us we have now needed to deconstruct this package, sift through it and reconstitute it to contain the things that are life giving and grace filling. Jesus said "I have come to bring life, life in all its fullness." And he enjoyed being able to provide more wine at the Cana wedding. What does this fully abundant life mean?
I enjoyed your book, Making Sense of Church. Thanks.
Posted by jenny | Posted at 09/09/2007 2:54 PMI am a mainline protestant Christian who grew up in a liberal academia-honoring lapsed Catholic family environment, where religion was tolerable as long as it stayed consistent with secular liberal social justice parameters. Outside of those parameters, religion was oppressive and scary and un-American. I see the positives and the subtle hypocracies of progressives and conservatives who make secular politics their religion. I offer the following for thought. Questioning homosexuality on Biblical grounds is not hate. Hating homosexuals is not Christian. Jesus' very existence was a political inconvenience to the secular world and a theat to the religious power base; however, Jesus never taught that one should strive for secular political power over others. As for the progressives in my mainline church, I think they are too eager to claim Scripture is a series of metaphors, instead of actually learning the Scripture and the writings of the Church Fathers. I have come to learn that forgiving and praying for someone with whom one is in conflict is a tough and worthy path to understanding grace. Peace and grace to you! Posted by Mike M. | Posted at 10/15/2007 10:56 AM
Wow - talk about catharsis!! Thank you!! I have walked the same path and I applaud your forum and willingness to step out beyond the "accepted". I have always been amazed at the number of ministry hirelings who are employed by "the church"...doing the job of "the church" so that "the church" can have a neat, clean presentation of itself. Praise God for the awakening that we see the Spirit bringing to the real "church" so that we too can live with and relate to the woman at the well. Posted by Hal | Posted at 11/07/2007 8:20 AM
I haven't read the rest of your site (just this article), but I really like the sound of this. I would like to be at a church where people think the way you think, where questioning is okay. However, I'm wary of the emerging church movement precisely because of an issue I observed in the comments to this very article. I'm skeptical that a movement that is still linked to evangelicalism can offer me the freedom I seek, because there are still people (for instance, in these comments) who say things like, "You can't say that homosexuality isn't wrong, because the Bible says it is," because they hold strictly to basic evangelical presuppositions about theology. Even a few years ago I would have valued that, but now I feel a hard-won freedom (which I haven't even quite finished winning, so it still feels fragile) from thinking about things in certain ways just because evangelical orthodoxy tells me to, and I shy away from anything that would seek to denigrate that freedom. So right now I feel more comfortable in an Anglican church, even though traditional worship forms do not touch me. Posted by Christine H | Posted at 11/13/2007 6:04 PM
I, like others, tend to agree and disagree with your position. I agree that the Church is missing something as a whole. I agree that we who should be united are divided on many fronts. I agree that some megachurches are missing the point of ministry, investing in more building space instead of investing into the community.
What I disagree on is what I am perceiving to be your stance on Scripture, though what that is, I am not quite certain. I can see that somehow you feel that Scripture relating to the sinfulness of homosexuality is invalid. What I am unsure of is why you feel that way. If it is because you feel as if it is no longer socially relative, I have to wonder where we stop in evaluating Scripture in such a way. Would we begin to feel as if Jesus Christ is not the only way to the Father, though in the Bible He says He is, just because society is leaning that this may no longer be the truth? Challenge incorrect theology! I agree wholeheartedly with that. But I do not see how one can challenge clear teaching of Scripture. It's starts getting into the miry muck of relativism where there is no escape. One of the ways I view it is like this. Let's say I make the observation that the sky is blue. One could then reply, "Only to you. I'm color blind, so it isn't blue to me." We would then have to start redefining how we say things. The sky is the color commonly referred to in the English language as blue. "Ah," but then the other side of the debate may then say, "I cannot see blue. So blue does not exist. Therefore, I say the sky is green."
What I mean is, where do we stop with relativism, and start looking at things objectively? And then, of course, I've heard the homosexuality as a person's inherent nature. In otherwords, God made me this way, so it must be okay. But you have to realize that, if we are to believe the what the Bible says holds any weight, we are all born inherently sinful. We might as well start justifying the fact that we are born selfish, hateful, prideful, and greedy as the way God made us and stop trying to modify our behavior.
My personal stance on homosexuality is this: Being a homosexual does not, in and of itself, warrant a person hell. Being a SINNER, separated from God, marks that as our destination. I think that a Christian can struggle with homosexuality, and that does not change the nature of their Christianity any more so than the fact that I struggle with selfishness, gluttony, and pride does for me. The problem is, we, as people, are masters of self-justification. We don't like to be wrong, and we try to prove to others that when we aren't. And it doesn't matter what issue it is we try to justify. If we are going to hold the Bible up as our objective truth of things, when their is a conflict between what we think, and what it says, we're wrong.
Unless you want to get back to parsing through what the bible really says and what it doesn't. But when you start questioning basic, clear cut things, not grey issues, but things it says are clearly wrong, then how can you believe anything the Bible has to say on anything? Why even be a Christian?
My other contention is this: You mentioned the communion section in 1 Corinthians as a statement saying unbelievers shouldn't do it. And though I agree that none believers shouldn't do it because it's meaningless to them, I do not think that the text referring to the judgement of those who eat and drink without checking their hearts referrs to unbelievers. You've gone to seminary, and I could be wrong, but I've always understood that the text was talking about those believers who had broken their fellowship with the Lord through unrepentant sin and hardened hearts. It was a form of discipline from God, but no more harsh than a parent calling a child home because it kept getting into trouble away from it.
I've belabored my point, I'm sure. Wiser men than I have engaged in this argument. My words are not about to make a difference. But I wanted to add my two cents. And I'd be open to a discussion about them should you, or any other person reading it choose to engage in one with me.
In Him, Joshua Campbell
Posted by joca4christ | Posted at 12/15/2007 9:07 AMI'm all for asking questions that will push our relationship with Christ further and deeper, but why ask questions about stuff that the Bible clearly speaks on in an absolute way? That's like a kid asking for a cookie and Mom says no...so the kid says well my version of reality is that I should have a cookie so let's question whether or not Mom's right to say no to me. She's Mom and she should be listened to and to disrespect her by rebelling would be anti-Christ!! Maybe not the best word picture but you know what I'm getting at. I'm all for postmodern thought and questions but the endless possibilities of question after question after question is sickening. It's like beating a horse after he's dead! If God said it, why can't that be good enough for you?! Or maybe I'm misunderstanding...maybe God didn't say it right, or maybe he didn't mean it the way He said it, or maybe He changed His mind now that it's 2007 and a bunch of spoiled rotten brats who don't like what He said figure they can question His authority!!! I think there is a lot to be gained about rethinking how the church meets the needs of a dying world and how we evangelize and questions aren't a bad idea there. But, if this movement is going to continue to question God and make a mockery out of what He did and said then stop the world, I want to get off. Enough already!!!! Posted by Scott | Posted at 12/21/2007 9:05 PM
I belong to a Church whose vision is to simply be Real, Relevant and Revolutionary, as we do life, with God, together. That vision is based on solid believes that include that the Bible is the inspired, infallible, authoritative Word of God, without error in the original language, and the believe that the Church consists of all those who truly believe in Jesus Christ and His atoning death, and who trust in Him as their Lord and Savior.
If you choose which parts of the Bible who want to follow instead of it all I believe you are choosing to follow a 'plastic' or 'dashboard' Christ; basing your salvation on your own believes and interpretations. I feel Churches that view actions defined as sinful in the Bible as acceptable or normal behavior are following the world, not Gods inspired word.
This does not mean that I am judging the person nor would I turn from them. I believe anyone will be welcome in my Church; we are a body of broken people. We will help each other in dealing with sin to turn away from it. We will not celebrate it and accept it. That includes gossip, greed, homosexuality, anger, spiritual bondage, addiction and on and on the list could go.
So...I do not agree with all of your views but I agree with some that you say are needed in the body of Christ. Thankfully my Church is doing a lot of them!
As I continue to be a part of this web site I will do what I do with all teachings whether it is web-based, a bible study, a sermon, a book, a TV show, an article or a discussion; look to the scriptures to ensure it is God based before I accept it and integrate it into my life. For the great items on this site that are it will be another tool to increase my knowledge which will in turn deepen my faith. You really limit your own growth if just go to Sunday services or look for information only in your comfort zones.
Posted by Cori | Posted at 01/05/2008 10:20 PMThe whole matter of homosexuality..........." forgiven when they turn away by the blood of Lamb" ........being approved by the church..." is part of the Whole sin condition repackaged. One drifting pastor spoke to us one Sunday that we needed to consider that the sin of Sodom and Gommorah wasn't necessarily homosexuality but... inhospitality...!! Now Sodom had an abundance of sin problems but to erase homosexuality from it as a cause for its destruction is ludicrous. It seems that carnal man has a need to make God into his own image. It is the absence of the Holy Spirit that causes our leaders to bring an alien message unknown certainly to Paul and the rest of the writers of the New Testament. The good part of the emerging movement is a drift......some drifting a little faster than others ....from the shoreline of sound biblical doctrine. The teachers of the drift cannot reveal too much of their agenda so as to scare their potential targets away.. the youth being the most conpicuous targets... but sweeten their words with compassion, transparency, relevency to slowly introduce their error so as to lull their hearers into agreement. They want to reinvent the bible, its teachings, and christianity. When I was became a christian when I was 24 years old,,Jesus of Nazareth,the One who died and rose from the dead 2000 years ago, revealed Himself as all loving,compassionate toward my sin , and powerful but yet Holy. What I believed before I became a christian didn't matter anymore... it was the revelation of Jesus and His Word that was the most important thing. He came to set the captives free. That includes adulterers, theives, murderers, homosexuals, gossips, liars, slanderers etc.. just like you and me.. Men and women have been marytred.. giving their lives for that Word throughout history.One thing you can be sure........ Jesus was not a compromiser.... Posted by Keith t | Posted at 12/14/2008 1:11 PM
Wow...how refreshing to not feel alone in this journey from Evangelical Christian to something else...something more?! Your story touched me as it is precisely the kind of path I am on, having been raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, college, and church, yet in search of something that feels more real and connecting. Thanks for your ministry! Posted by Lori | Posted at 12/29/2008 6:40 PM
What a helpful essay this is! It reminds me of Paul's comment in 1 Cor 8, as translated by Eugene Peterson in The Message: "We sometimes tend to think we know all we need to know to answer these kinds of questions-- but sometimes our humble hearts can help us more than our proud minds. We never really know enough until we recognize that God alone knows it all."
So many take issue over "the clear meaning of the text," unaware that it may only be clear because of our passing worldview. Homosexuality is a great example - all four of the main passages used to condemn it have significant hermeneutic problems; the "clear meaning of the text" is not very clear at all. But it is so easy to believe that it is, perhaps because it's one of those "everybody knows" issues, the questioning of which brings more scorn than thought (as a few of these comments demonstrate).
Truly, "sometimes our humble hearts can help us more than our proud minds." Thanks for an excellent, honest piece.
Posted by Monte | Posted at 01/31/2009 3:18 PM"Similarly, there was a time when women were prevented from voting or owning property-a position the church heartily endorsed. Throughout history, Christians have been eager to shackle women both in and out of the church. Given a less-than-stellar track record, is it really so heretical to think that the evangelical church may just be wrong about homosexuality as well? I mean, isn't it wise to at least ask the "What if?" question from time to time, if for no other reason than to test our contemporary application of Scripture"
Yes, Romans 1, 1Corinthians 6, Levitcus 18 "IS" very clear, how can we pick and choose on what we should beleive in the bible and what we shouldn't???
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. NIV
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Sexual Immorality 12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. NIV
I hate to be the one who says this, but the stuff you wrote Spencer Burke, is the most Anti-Christian, Anti-Bible and Anti-God statments I have ever read on a so-called Christian website !
Posted by jk | Posted at 03/09/2009 7:40 PM