Hiya Lightwait, and welcome to the Ooze :)

That is, definitely, a metaphysical and scientific thought for pondering. I'm not really one for that sort of discussion, but I'm sure someone else will be!

~H

Hi Lightwait and welcome.

How I explain this paradox of something coming from nothing is that in reality, in Truth, there is nothing physical. It's only our perception that makes it appear that way.

We are actually eternal beings of an unknown nature with an unknown origin, an abstraction of an abstraction; One Being juxtaposed through the principle of duality geometrically progressed into a multiplicity through bound states of Consciousness.

Einstein said as much in one of his most quoted statements: "Reality is an illusion albeit a very persistent one."

Both Evolution and creation need a step of faith. One is saying there was a creator, and one saying there was a big bang, or water dripping on a stone.

What's interesting about evolution is that the universe is required to be a 'self creating' AND self organizing system. OK, but from what source is it creating? Itself? And with what mechanism is it organizing?

Where is God in all this theory?

Welcome to TheOoze, lightwait!

I don't believe in ExNilho.
I believe in God’s Glass Marble: An Eternally Existent Finite Universe.

Imagine a glass marble. Within its center is a bright light with various rays or beams of light streaking out to its outer edge. This glass ball represents the whole of Creation; our entire created universe. The smooth outer surface of this ball is the end of our universe. The very center of the bright light in its center is the birth or creation of our universe – the Big Bang if you will. The rays or beams of light streaking out are galaxies, stars, and planets travelling through space and forward through time. Time would be represented as the distance from the center, similar to counting rings on a tree stump. The further away from the center, the further into this universe’s finite history you would find yourself – the outer edge being the end of the universe and the end of time. Although the universe is finite (having both a beginning and an end), viewed like a glass ball, this whole could exist eternally. God could carry this glass ball around in His pocket like a young boy carries a marble. It would always exist and would always accompany Him. In this “state” it would be completely static. Time would not flow.

History would be laid out in plain view from the beginning to the end, from Alpha to Omega.

However, the analogy of the boy and his marble must end here because God can do something the boy can never do. God can dip His finger into the glass marble! As He enters, Time ceases to be frozen and static and become a stream - history. God can enter the Time-stream, thus exiting His “state” of eternalness.

When dealing with Creation we inevitably come across some very difficult and legitimate questions. Why did God cause Creation if there is absolutely nothing that can be added to God’s perfection? What was His motive? How could an omnipotent and good God created a flawed world? Who was the Creator? These questions can become more and more complex and complicated, and near impossible to answer. They are however all based on one simple assumption

Creation was a deliberate act.

After hearing a statement like that the first response will be to assume that is was an accident. Then if Creation was an accident we reintroduce the question of God’s omnipotence (an omnipotent being can’t or at least shouldn’t) be making accidents. After all, how could an all-powerful being make a mistake or accidentally cause Creation? But this question too is based on an assumption. The assumption that if something was not a deliberate act then it must have been an accidental act. But incidences or events do not have to be either a deliberate act or an accident. Creation could be a byproduct of the nature of God – it could have been inevitable.

We must begin to look at the nature of God. The nature of God is goodness. What is goodness in its simplest form? Goodness by its nature gives itself, communicates itself. One cannot be good and utterly isolated or in an eternal or perpetual “social” vacuum. Since goodness by its nature gives itself and communicates itself, it must have a recipient to give itself to and to communicate with.

Creation – although absolutely not God’s purpose – is a byproduct of the state of Godhood. Creation is a byproduct of God’s goodness. Creation and its creatures add nothing to God nor is God dependant on Creation or its creatures in any way or form, but Creation (even as a byproduct) is completely dependant on its Creator. It is something that simply and naturally pours out of God. This answers the question “Why does God create?” It also addresses many of the more difficult questions: Why did God cause Creation? What was His motive? He didn’t choose to cause Creation and He had no motive. “Why did God create a flawed world (or allow it to fall)” becomes a little trickier to answer, but still easy. Once again, God did not, as an act, cause Creation. Why a fallen world? To not have introduced Free Will would again contradict God’s nature. Goodness gives itself and communicates itself. To have recipients without Free Will is to have robots or automatons, which ultimately make communication, and giving impossible. Free Will was a necessity of Creation: a byproduct of a byproduct.

Before you grab your torches and begin sharpening your pitchforks, please read on. Creation is a byproduct of God’s Goodness. If we can agree that God’s nature is goodness, then goodness by its nature gives itself and communicates itself. Creation becomes a byproduct of God’s Goodness because the very nature of goodness cannot exist in an isolated vacuum. It must give itself and communicate itself to someone or something! Thus the Created Universe comes into being. The only two arguments I’ve heard against this idea do not hold water when thought through.

The first argument states that since the Created Universe is a temporal thing (it has a beginning and it will also have an end) and God’s nature is eternal, there are vast amounts of time before Creation and after our universe’s end. During these times God would not have this byproduct of His Goodness. The flaw in this argument however is in its very question. Time only exists within our Created Universe. Our Created Universe is 4-dimensional (if not more!) and God is outside of it. There is no time before or after our universe! Our universe is Time. If this weren’t true – if time did exist before and after Creation – then God Himself would be subjected to time and a chronological chain of events as well as aging. From God’s point(s) of view, the Created Universe –as a self-contained 4-dimensional universe – would always exist.
The second argument agrees that God’s nature is Goodness and Goodness must give and communicate itself to another. However, this argument does not agree that Creation must be that other. Before Creation God existed in a Triune state – three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God’s Goodness “gives” Himself and “communicates” Himself to Himself. There is no need or place for Creation.

If we apply Ockham’s razor to this comment we find a redundancy. Why have more than one, when only one is necessary? God’s Goodness needs only to give and communicate to one receiver, not two. That one receiver is Creation.

You can read more from http://otherroguearticles.blogspot.com/2007/11/god-outside-time.html>God Outside of Time if interested, but that post jumps around and is somewhat 'disjointed'.

...and biblically speaking, I don't believe it supports ExNilho either.

In Genesis 1 we find God creating from some sort of preexistent (or possibly co-existent) materials. "The waters".
Sounds more to me like God brought order to chaos.

RWbeliever said:

Where is God in all this theory?

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. (Colossians 1:16-17)

'Hear O Israel the Lord our God is One." - One meaning an absolute or all; all the omnis.

Seph said:

...and biblically speaking, I don't believe it supports ExNilho either.

In Genesis 1 we find God creating from some sort of preexistent (or possibly co-existent) materials. "The waters".
Sounds more to me like God brought order to chaos.

ditto that.

What is Genesis 1:1 referring to? "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth" (Young's Literal) What are the heavens and the earth? Is this a reference to something physical as in the heavens being the stars and galaxies and the earth being planet Earth? Or, is it a reference to the heavens being an abstract plane of existence such as where we exist as 'souls.' And, earth being reference to a physical plane of existence as in the physical universe.

I find it interesting that light has to come first since quantum electrodynamics is a very strange place in science. Some scientists would even say that at the very core everything is made from light (photons) in that light and its reflection combine to form matter.