The coptic church is actually more arabic, than African/BLACK. We do have an AFrican parishoner or two, as well as people from the Ertitrean church who attend(Eritrea was once part of Ethiopia, but left in the 90s). But you maybe are thinking more of the Ethiopian sister church. Which of course came from the Coptic church, and is "Coptic" in its theology, liturgy etc, but its music and culture is more African than Arabic.
The Coptic church is good in that it does have a decent ammount of English speakers and church worship in English. Which makes it easy on newcomers and visitors, and native converts. I've been wanting to go to an Ethiopian service but I think all if it right now in the states is in Amharic. So I haven't even though I have friends in the Ethiopian community.
Every time the government tries to organize the economy, the only thing that stays organized is crime.
thepeoplescube
Message #219030 - This was a reply to message #214376
marcdav
Lurker Total Posts: 6
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 9:11 AM
Nothing to add here really, Maurice said everything I wanted to say (he is my new best friend btw). I am an African American Christian in Oberlin, OH. I pretty much "fell" into the emergent discussion via a new friend in Columbus who knows a guy some of you might know named Mark who leads a community called "the Landing Place" (I just met Mark yesterday and his lovely wife, and had an opportunity to pray for him [he has cancer]).
My friend is also BLACK and leads a community of his own called "Mosaic", which (according to him) is truly diverse both racially and economically.
All I want to do right now is say "hi" to everyone. I have been looking for this kind of discussion for a long time. This place is a breath of fresh air.
-Marc
P.S., I am fascinated by the brief discussion on the Coptic Church. I would love to hear more about it. One question I have always had is whether or not there is a tradition within Coptic Christendom with regards to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts?
www.branchinthevine.blogspot.com
Message #219413 - This was a reply to message #214376
Addai
Walks With God Total Posts: 12093
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 10:03 AM
Yes I would love to share with you.
Yes the Ethiopian eunuch did spread the gospel there. They had an unoficial church, there for the first 400 years. Then around Ad 400 or so they petitioned to have bishops sent to found a national church.
So there was a team of 12 bishops sent to that country, 4 from the Greek Orthodox church, 4 from the Coptic Church, and 4 from the Syrian Orthodox church and they formally founded the current Ethiopian Orthodox Church, known as the Tewahedio Church. ethiopia before then was largely a Jewish country. She actually converted from when the Queen of Sheba visted Solomon, back in the Old Testament times. And even now, there is a very strong Jewsih element to Ethiopian culture. Their customs, food, and language, etc. And there are many interesting things about that country.
In many ways it did pattern itself literally after Israel. It's a kind of Christian, post NT Israel. So for instance it has a Holy city patterned after Jerusalem, with interesting Cathedrals carved out of the stone of a mountain (A little like Petra). They also are reputed to possess the "ark of the Covenant". For in one of their Cathedrals there is indeed a gold ark like thing that matches the description of the OT (its either the one or an anceint knock off of it).
The Ethiopians also are the only ancient church to have dance as part of their religious service (they have a dance step they do during processional marches). (And as I think it may have also been mentioned) theya re one of the few ancient churches to use drums in their worship (Copts use cymbals).
They also are the ones that have blessed the world with the discovery of Coffee. Ethiopian coffee is very good, and unlike any other you have ever tasted. they hand roast and grind the beans themselves, over a skillet kind of like making "Jiffy Pop" popcorn,they roast them in a sauce pan, then grind them up, por hot water in it and serve it a traditional carafe.
Their food is also very good and distinctive. Much of it is a kind of spicey African Curry. They have an interesting flat bread called "Injara" that is sort of like giant sheets of spongey, sour dough pan cakes. (its very soft and bublley). I like a lot of their dishes. I want to learn to make the vegatarian ones, to give me something good and healthy to eat during our fast times. They also have a distinctive honey wine/ mead type dish that is a national drink. That goes back to ancient times.
As people Ethiopians are very polite. They have a bow (kind of pronounced head nod thing) greeting they do to each other a little like asians do. And often are soft spoken. Like many traditional cultures however I hear they can be notiorious gossipers (behind people's backs)!
Thier traditoanl clothing can also be very pretty and distinctive. and reminiscant of the robes you would see in the bible. But they have nice decorative colors and patterns and not just plain dyed material. Some of the traditional dress for church, actually looks very much like some of the dresses and costumes I've seen Egyptian women wearing in some of the movies like "The Ten Commandments" etc. like what egyptian noble women would wear.
Anyway they are one Church & people that I want to cover at length in the future on my blog.
Every time the government tries to organize the economy, the only thing that stays organized is crime.
thepeoplescube
Message #219421 - This was a reply to message #219413
marcdav
Lurker Total Posts: 6
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 10:16 AM
Thanks Addai,
That was very informative and well written too.
www.branchinthevine.blogspot.com
Message #219426 - This was a reply to message #219421
GinaInME
Walks With God Total Posts: 10431
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 5:41 PM
Welcome Marc! I see we have an occupation in common, or rather former occupation for me. Look forward to seeing you around.
You asked the right person about the history of the African churches! I learned quite a bit in Addai's reply, too.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -C.S. Lewis
Message #219566 - This was a reply to message #219413
Addai
Walks With God Total Posts: 12093
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 6:56 PM
Well the Ethiopians are a really significant part of our Communion. In population I think they outnumber more than rest of the churches combined. Being at least 30 something million. Half or more of the country is in that Church. the rest of the country is split among muslims being the most numerous, PRotetants and catholics.
So anyway out of Orthodox Communions, we are very "non white", when you add up the ethnicities we are mostly a BLACK and asiatic communion. The only official Caucasians are our Armenian brothers.
I actually find the cultural diversity, and the diversity in worship in the Oriental Orthodox Communion quiet refreshing. In Catholicism, and your Byzantine, "Eastern Orthodoxy". A lot of things can always seem a lot the same. The liturgies are standardized. You go from one European thing to the next one. With the Oriental churches, things are more varied and spicey. Each of the Churches in that communion has its own flavor. (Except for the Eritreans, that is, which are pretty much like their former Ethiopian countrymen. But give them time, and I'm sure they will get their own flavor).
Every time the government tries to organize the economy, the only thing that stays organized is crime.
thepeoplescube
Message #219585 - This was a reply to message #219566
flame
V.I.P. Total Posts: 666
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 11:10 PM
btw Addai I found out the name of the metallic cymbal/bell instrument we use in the liturgy, it's called "kheshotz"( u know since it makes that "khesh, khesh" sound )
that's such a perfect description! especially the "soft spoken" part
They just started building their first church building here in Lebanon with help of the Catholicosate of Cilicia, they registered the land under the Armenian Church's name since the government doesnt recognize them as an official church, it's the same with Copts i think...
anyway here's a link: link
"Who are you?" they asked.
"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. - John 8:25
Message #219623 - This was a reply to message #219421
pastorpfunk
Member Total Posts: 181
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Wednesday August 17, 2005 11:34 PM
As part of a historically white church that has moved toward multicultural expression, and as an emergent cracker with a passion for multi-chromatic churches, I am extremely excited that this convo is begun. One of my main disapointments with the emergent convo has been its "crack-o-centric" take on everything. So much so that they have failed to realize the "other America", the BLACK one exists.
Some things that can get the convo started-
First, white people need to realize and study the BLACK expereince in america. Physical, emotional, spiritual. Get into "BLACK history" studies and realize that it is American history, just the side whites haven't talked about or been taught. Understand why the call to return to the "good old days" of a "godly" america in Thomas Jefferson's era doesn't excite most african americans (here one hint-slavery/Jim Crow and the churches condoning of it). Understand why the "big three" of white american politics (abortion, gay marriage, and prayer in school) seems secondary to african american concerns (economics. education, empowerment-dare I sound democratic here?).
So how to bridge the gap? A few personal ministry observations-
First, I don't promo any ministry I do as pomo. I just do it. Do what works and let it be whatever it will be. Second, we find ways to move from soley white music or BLACK music to being "our music", the expression of our local congregation. We don't structure for whites, BLACKs, or latino's-we structure for us. Find your sound and roll with it. If other churches dig on it-cool. If not, you'll still grow. Third, hang out with each other-share food and life, honestly and authentically.
Im out-thoughts?
F-
Message #219627 - This was a reply to message #214376
Addai
Walks With God Total Posts: 12093
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Thursday August 18, 2005 8:32 AM
That is the most interesting church instrument I've ever seen.... Ok I can think of another that is on par with it. While a Charismatic there was this salsa, jazz improv bad that was a church worship team. And they had these big African rattle type poles. These big long staff poles, that were hollow on the inside. And had these spiral type grooves. They were filled with these little marbles.
Anyway those thingies made a really intersting swoosh sound. That could at times even sound like thunder, when they were shook hard. Anyway, you could shake them for a constant sound. OR just turn them upside down and lets the marbles swoosh to the bottom.
Anyway whenever I see those Armenian fan cymbals. I get flashbacks of the old Star Trek TV show. It really seems like something some alien planet like Vulcan would use for their church services!
someday when our priest is sick, or on travel. I'm going to take Gina over St.Andrews, Armenian. I've been really thinking about doing that the last few months But those Egyptians once they adopt you they really miss not having you around! They will always comment something like, "We missed you last sunday." So, its little things like that, I think God has dropped hints to me, to curb my old charismatic church hopping ways and be more planted in my home church.
Every time the government tries to organize the economy, the only thing that stays organized is crime.
thepeoplescube
Message #219686 - This was a reply to message #219623
flame
V.I.P. Total Posts: 666
RE: Black People in the Conversation
Thursday August 18, 2005 11:16 AM
LOL
God bless you, your Church and the Egyptian people, they're great people.
God wants stability. i'm learning that as well.
"Who are you?" they asked.
"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. - John 8:25
Message #219741 - This was a reply to message #219686
