Tagged with church - TheOOZE.com Forums

Where have all the christian artists gone?

Mirror — Sat, 11 Aug 2012 10:35:46 -0400

Hi Everyone,

Whilst I'll not try and wrestle with the phrase 'christian artist' or 'artists who are christians' and perhaps as someone new-ish to these pages (please be gentle with me!), I'm wondering where artists go in the USA who are christian, but maybe disillusioned with the established churches, or the institutionalised variety of spirituality? Are there networks for people who actually desire to be Followers of the Way, but find the context of such establishments to be restrictive or discouraging of their gifts?

In Britain we have things like the Greenbelt Festival (for that once a year experience) and in Bristol there's The Group which helps marginalised artists to come together and present their work. I've read a couple of articles on American based sites (eg Worship Training) and they suggest that the problem is the artist and not the Church! Artists are difficult people, sensitive, high maintenance, individualistic etc. but no one as yet seems to have considered that the Church may be 'the problem'.

Any input would be gratefully received.

Peace,

Mirror

Anyone have good church recommendations in NYC?

jdmyers — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:16:22 -0400

Need some more church in my life, but I don't want the standard traditional stuff that most of us are used to. With that said, I also don't want something so extremely progressive that it's unrecognizable as a Christian fellowship. You think that'd be easy to find in a city like NYC. Anyone have any suggestions?

Sin, Unworthiness and the Church's Remembrance of Things Past

Mirror — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 09:17:54 -0400

Hi,

Just a muse, with an appeal to re-educating the Church to consider more the resurrected life.

I was just wondering why every time I visit my church I am reminded, without fail, of my sinfulness and unworthiness? As one person said, "language reinforces behaviour" and if we are told often enough that we are unworthy, then we will live like that.

We never seem to get to this thing that Paul writes about, called the resurrected life. The Church seems to have more models of the fallen life than it does of an existence full of the Spirit of Life. Why is this? Is it a matter of control; of an authoritarian stance which suggests that people need the Church (institution) as a means, a mediator to live before God?

How do we redress this? Whilst I understand my previous fallen life, I am reminded by the Scripture of a new life, a new creation, of a righteousness imputed to me. How come I'm not reminded of this in my Church. (Although I've been to others and they have the same approach!)

Peace,

Geoff

Blue Like Jazz . . . Meet Purple Like Polka

JMatthanBrown — Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:11:20 -0400

Hey guys, my satire Purple Like Polka will be available for free download on Kindle Press until Tuesday if anyone is interested: http://www.amazon.com/Purple-Like-Polka-Non-Spiritual-ebook/dp/B008L2V9Z4/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1342911219&sr=1-1&keywords=purple+like+polka

If you read it, I'd love to hear what you think!

My Church or my family

crossXcarrier — Sat, 07 Apr 2012 16:45:05 -0400

Ok so I am new here and was just kinda browsing around for a new haunt when I found this place, since my old board faded away. Anyway, here is the dilemma, I was quite literally raised in my church by my God-Parents who are the preacher and sunday school teacher. And I am their unofficially adopted son, so since they have no kids of their own, they willed me their entire estate, church included. I know, most people would be honored, and I am, but here is the real kicker, the church is out in the country by this old, dying town that has no real future for a young family, plus a whole lot of people in that town don't like my wife's family and cause alot of drama and stress for her. Details will be given on request. cXc

Hello again & please pray for us

pal — Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:40:04 -0400

Hello again.

I frequented this forum several years ago, but not for some time... So far as I can tell everything from back then has been archived or deleted or something as I can find none of the old conversations I participated in and even my old login didn't exist any more. Many of my interactions from back then I have valued, and reflected on over time, but I fear I wasn't American enough for some. (I am Australian) I chose to quietly drift into the background rather than ruffle the nationalistic feathers.

In appreciation of the wisdom and grace that infused most of the conversations I was involved in, I have returned - in truth primarily to ask for prayer for a small congregation I have been working with for about 15 years as a member of its Board, in a time of crisis.

I will try to avoid identifying details (God knows).

This congregation is affiliated with a Church structure that doesn't impose strict theology and doctrine. There is significant diversity in the member congregations right across the theological spectrum which I only began to fully understand when I spent a term serving on the State Board of the organisation. The particular congregation in question set out on a path of missional outreach to its local community early in its development soon after I and my family first became involved. Along the path of establishment a number of more conservative Christians became involved who for a time succeeded in steering the congregation away from mission. They had achieved effective control when the Ministry team (husband and wife) retired, leaving the congregation looking for a new Minister. While a core group still pursued outreach, all Ministry appointments and moves toward serving the community were blocked for a number of years while the congregation virtually stagnated, becoming comfortable in ritual and repetition. Eventually through election results, the conservative influence was lessened, allowing plans for mission to be discussed and implemented, and an appointment of a young Minister fresh from College to be put to the congregation. This led to a conservative backlash that undermined and destabilised the congregation, and where a number of members were personally targeted (including the new Minister) and led to several resignations from the congregation, sadly, also including the new Minister. Another, more mature Minister was appointed who also came under fire for following the plans for outreach. The chief protagonist was called to account by the more mature Minister who wasn't so easily intimidated, and was asked to apoligise for damage done to certain individuals. The following storm was significant, in which the conservative elements and their families resigned their membership on mass and generated enough misinformation and doubt about the reasons why, that many other members who had not been directly involved in any of the hidden politicking got cold feet and left also.

Throughout all these problems, the outreach has been progressing through the effort of those with a heart to be involved in it, and is being blessed - seeing many from the community coming to faith. I have had the privilege just tonight of again leading a Bible study group made up of new and lapsed Christians who's faith is being rekindled.

While it could be said that it is good for the congregation that those who had been working against doing God's work in the community have gone, they have taken with them, or at least dislodged almost all those who were in a position to financially support the work of the congregation. I can now count on the fingers of one hand the members who have a regular income (none of them large), with most of those remaining living on social security of one form or another, as are the majority of those coming into the congregation through the outreach activities. The congregation is paying off a small loan for the hall it built on the edge of town expressly to facilitate its work in the community, and has the wages of the Minister. Everything else is voluntary, but with only a handful of incomes to support it, it seems likely from a financial perspective that either the Minister or the building will have to go. Coming on top of the recent troubles, I fear that it may be the final straw in the minds of many of those that remain, and could spell the end of the congregation and the work it is doing.

I know, and have seen evidence of God's provision many times over the years, and have no doubt that He can provide whatever is needed. My request of those who are willing is for prayer, that the remaining faithful few in this congregation will not loose heart; That a way forward will be found and embraced to enable God's work to continue (even if it DOES mean loosing the building or the Minister!); and That the unity in mind and spirit that once characterised this congregation (and still exists in pockets) will return to the whole.

I apologise that my first post back is such an essay - and thank you for reading it... Please pray for us?

Pal

No One Turns Down the Blessing by Charlie Wear

djchuang — Tue, 24 Apr 2012 22:52:09 -0400

Recently read the e-Book by Charlie Wear (publisher of Next Wave e-zine) - No One Turns Down the Blessing. It's a short read, and has a handful of real-life stories that give you a snapshot of his faith journey into traditional organized church and then out of it, to being the "church in service" rather than running a church service. His expression of church looked like a skate park in one scene; handing out tri-tip sandwiches in another.

Wondering if anyone here has read it or heard of it, and what do you think? Would like to jump in on a short discussion about it.

dj

How Facebook Killed the Church

Galadriel — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:32:44 -0500

I just stumbled across a very interesting blog post on twitter and thought it may spark a good discussion.

So why has mobile social computing affected church attendance? Well, if church has always been kind of lame and irritating why did people go in the first place? Easy, social relationships. Church has always been about social affiliation. You met your friends, discussed your week, talked football, shared information about good schools, talked local politics, got the scoop, and made social plans ("Let's get together for dinner this week!"). Even if you hated church you could feel lonely without it. Particularly with the loss of "third places" in America.

- link

Recommended Seminaries?

kbrownstead — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:18:55 -0500

Hey guys

I have just recently came out of the theological closet, realizing that it is not sinful or faithless to use my brain (or heart). This has really shaken up my world, and my plans. One thing that remains certain, though: my yearning to go into ministry. Could you please recommend a few notable seminaries? I have looked at The Seattle School, Claremont, and Duke. However, I am far from a decision and want to explore all options. I would love to hear personal accounts and experiences that would not be on a website or told by an admissions counselor.

Where Have All the Presbyterians Gone?

other — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:44:44 -0500

from Wall Street Journal:
* FEBRUARY 4, 2011

Where Have All the Presbyterians Gone?
Nondenominational churches are the fastest growing in the country.

By RUSSELL D. MOORE

Are we witnessing the death of America's Christian denominations? Studies conducted by secular and Christian organizations indicate that we are. Fewer and fewer American Christians, especially Protestants, strongly identify with a particular religious communion—Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. According to the Baylor Survey on Religion, nondenominational churches now represent the second largest group of Protestant churches in America, and they are also the fastest growing.

More and more Christians choose a church not on the basis of its denomination, but on the basis of more practical matters. Is the nursery easy to find? Do I like the music? Are there support groups for those grappling with addiction?

This trend is a natural extension of the American evangelical experiment. After all, evangelicalism is about the fundamental message of Christianity—the evangel, the gospel, literally the "good news" of God's kingdom arriving in Jesus Christ—not about denomination building.

The post-World War II generation of evangelicals was responding to congregations filled with what they considered spiritual deadness. People belonged to a church, but they seemed to have no emotional experience of Christianity inside the building. Revivalists watched as denominational bureaucracies grew larger, and churches shifted from sending missionaries to preach around the world to producing white papers on issues like energy policy.

The revivalists wanted to get back to basics, to recover the centrality of a personal relationship with Jesus. "Being a member of a church doesn't make you a Christian," the ubiquitous evangelical pulpit cliché went, "any more than living in a garage makes you a car." Thus these evangelical ministries tended not to talk about those issues that might divide their congregants. They avoided questions like: Who should be baptized and when? What does the Lord's Supper mean? Should women be ordained? And so on.

The movement exploded. Before 1955, there were virtually no megachurches (defined as 2,000 people per worship service) in the country. Now there are between 850 and 1,200 such churches and many are nondenominational, according to the Hartford Institute for Religion Research. Evangelicalism wanted to open its doors to all believers and it often lacked roots in the traditions of particular congregations. So many evangelical churches have a generic identity. This has changed the feel of local church life.

Where hymnody once came from the spontaneity of slave spirituals or camp meetings, worship songs are increasingly now focus-grouped by executives in Nashville. The evangelical "Veggie Tales" cartoons—animated Bible stories featuring talking cucumbers and tomatoes—probably shape more children in their view of scripture than any denominational catechism does these days. A church that requires immersion baptism before taking communion, as most Baptist traditions do, will likely get indignant complaints from evangelical visitors who feel like they've been denied service at a restaurant.

But there are some signs of a growing church-focused evangelicalism. Many young evangelicals may be poised to reconsider denominational doctrine, if for no other reason than they are showing signs of fatigue with typical evangelical consumerism.

For example, artists such as Keith and Kristen Getty and Sojourn Music are reaching a new generation with music written for and performed by local congregations. Yes, prosperity preacher Joyce Meyer sells her book "Eat the Cookie, Buy the Shoes," which encourages Christians to "lighten up" by eating cookies and buying shoes (seriously). But, at the same time, Alabama preacher David Platt is igniting thousands of young people with his book "Radical," which calls Christians to rescue their faith by lowering their standard of living and giving their time and money to Church-based charities.

And though nondenominational churches are growing, the Southern Baptist Convention—the nation's largest Protestant group—has over 10,000 students studying for ministry in six seminaries right now.

If denominationalism simply denotes a "brand" vying for market share, then let denominationalism fall. But many of us believe denominations can represent fidelity to living traditions of local congregations that care about what Jesus cared about—personal conversion, discipleship, mission and community. Perhaps the denominational era has just begun.

Mr. Moore is dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY.

"7 mistakes churches need to avoid" article

Loffers — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 05:14:05 -0500

Any others read this article by Keith Giles, I did and found myself agreeing with the vast majority (except the political pitfall is not as prevalent in the UK). Any other thoughts?

Back in the saddle again.

Sacrednarrative — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 10:52:33 -0400

it has been a while but I wanted to pop in and visit my old church.
A quick update. I gave up professional pastoring for Lent after 15 years in the trenches. After launching two churches and opening a missional coffee house in Colorado Springs, my wife and I decided it was time for a change. I'll be teaching secondary English in the Fall while getting Masters number two in Education from University of Colorado. (Masters #1 is a nearly completed M.Div from SWBTS) hopefully I'll be writing more poetry and more stories and someday teaching English at the undergrad level...someday.

The Ooze Forums were where I formed much of my theology and honed my civility into something valuable to the rest of my world.

Warmly,
Sacrednarrative

What Would You Want to Know?

timmeresque — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:40:32 -0400

Just began a blog about how we seek out a new church; I'm working to share my journey, others journeys, and to help people out along the way.

My question is this, as far as denominations go, what would someone want to know about them?

ex. What might people want to know about the Lutheran denomination?

Also, if you have a story about your hunt for a church and would like to share it - plugintochurch.com

Where You Belong

hpiglet — Sun, 05 Jun 2011 19:15:53 -0400

So many things seem to be on my mind right now, I hope you all are enjoying coming along for the ride rather than rolling your eyes that hpiglet has posted yet another thread.

For those not in on the events of my life recently, I've been looking for a new church home now that I've moved far far away from my old one. The brief recap - last weekend I attended a predominantly (all) Hispanic semi charismatic (labelled as: lots of Holy Spirit invitin' but no rolling around on the floor or bonking people with microphones) church. In general, the folks I met were very friendly, welcoming, and genuinely eager to make more than small talk with me. However, the church service in and of itself didn't speak to me in the least. In fact, there were quite a few parts that I was averted from. Today, I had the opportunity to visit a church very much more my speed: one that identifies as a "focus on the majors, grace in the minors" type of church, the service was very much my "speed" (contemporary) and style (honest, solid Biblical teaching), and...the only time any effort was made to know me as a new person was during "meet and greet" (the 30 seconds after the first set of worship). It also happened to be predominantly (all) white. Both churches are church plants. Both services had about 15 people in attendance.

I most definitely am interested in continuing with the latter church for a few more weeks. Which is interesting...as when I chose a church in Denver, it was for the teaching and for the fact that people seemed very sincerely interested in knowing who I was from the get go.

So here's my ponderance here: How much does our culture really intersect with the church we choose or do not choose? At what point do our cultural preferences actually become a hindrance to the unified body of Christ? I think also this might apply to micro or house churches which also have this tendency to be pretty homogeneous in their "congregations" (I know, that's a strange word to use, but for lack of a better name?)

What do you guys think?

~H

How to Get More Young People in Church (article discussion)

Galadriel — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:14:26 -0500

Someone I follow on Twitter posted a link to this step-by-step plan to get more young people interested in church.

I don't agree with all of the points raised but it does bring up some of the reasons why I lost interest in organized religious activities.

non-church-goers*, I'm particularly interested in hearing what you have to say about this. Does this accurately reflect why you don't go to church meetings, small groups, etc?

Church-goers*, what do you think are the biggest reasons why people don't go to church?

*These are such awkward labels but I can't think of better ones at the moment. :)

Church hosts anti-christian concert

rebellionoflove — Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:50:09 -0400

How people find a new church??

timmeresque — Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:12:27 -0400

I'm in the process of doing some research looking for how people discover and begin attending a new church? Any wisdom from pastors or people who have went through this would be fantastic.

Specifically

1. How would a new person find your church or how did you find a new church?
2. What are the various ways a church can advertise or what advertising helped you to decide to attend a church?
3. What is the most important element of a church people are looking for or what was the most important element you were looking for?

Any help would be fantastic!!

Attending the Same Church

hpiglet — Mon, 30 May 2011 14:25:37 -0400

Greetings Oozians from the great shores of the Pacific Coast. (I love it here already.)

So...I've hit a dillemma. The boyfriend has been talking up this little church plant here. In the history of the 8 years I've known him, he's never been excited about going to a church, much less going to "extra credit" church on Thursday nights.

So here's the deal. The church is a Calvary Chapel plant. Which, I have no issue with most of Calvary's theology. But...well...it's particularly set in the vein of hispanic pentecostalism, and the teaching pastor drove me NUTS he was all over the place during his hour and fifteen minute long sermon. So now I've a conundrum...I can't picture myself attending this church that my boyfriend really really loves. And one of the things he was excited to have about me moving here was us being able to attend church together.

So...thoughts?

~H

Marriage as a Metaphor for Religious Commitment

Galadriel — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:02:54 -0400

I was on a panel at a book fair once with a rabbi and a priest, and the rabbi started going after people who call themselves “spiritual but not religious.” He said that it was taking the easy way out to leave institutional religion, that faith is like a marriage—maybe there are parts of it you don’t like, but you have to stay and work through those parts.

-From Why I Broke Up With God. (It isn't necessary to read the entire article - I'm most interested in the sentences quoted above.)

Is this a good metaphor?
Should we approach faith in a similar way to how we
Do the answers to the first two questions change based on the health of our spiritual communities?
How have or would you respond to being part of a church that mistreats or discriminates against you?

Article of the Week: An Open Apology for the Church (by Joe Boyd)

MJG791 — Wed, 25 May 2011 21:49:30 -0400

http://theooze.com/church/open-apology-for-the-church/

We're going to try to post an article of the week which brings about discussion in the forums... where more people are conversing rather than simply leaving comments.

Happy Chatting!

Is diversity an illusion?

MoJoJules — Sat, 05 Mar 2011 12:06:50 -0500

So I've been working on this whole diversity thing. It feels like it is the buzz word any more. It feels like this way to bring a cool factor to a gathering. However, here is my question, am I wrong to think that it is an illusion? Something nice to strive for, but unachievable? I keep seeing how when we continue to push the margins there is always someone marginalized. A friend of mine said to me once that those of us in the conversation set up camp in never never land. As he shared this I realized that I was like him, I wanted to keep following Peter Pan and find other places. Something that has come of this is seeing how diversity is some false set up. Am I wanted in a community because of my "label"? I help fill the queer hole. And as I'm allowed in I look back behind me and see others who then are marginalized because of it. They are conservative or they still struggle with LGBT and their understanding of the bible. My heart aches because this seems so unfair. Which I know is strange for some to hear from someone like me.

So, in all of this I wonder what y'all think of this. Where are you at in this journey of diversity? I'm interested in thoughts.

Ohio 'Touchdown Jesus' To Be Replaced With Large, Full-standing Statue

other — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 10:36:03 -0400

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110406/NEWS01/304060025/1196/Work-start-soon-new-Jesus-statue?odyssey=nav

MONROE - A new sculpture of Jesus will soon begin to rise from the pool at Solid Rock Church - nearly a year after a lightning strike burned the first statue to a crisp.

Oakley sculptor Tom Tsuchiya said construction of the statue that replaces the iconic figure that was often called “Touchdown Jesus” is expected to begin in May or June when the weather warms.

Much of the figure – which church officials dubbed “Come Unto Me” – will be assembled on site at the church which sits along northbound Interstate 75.

For now, the project – a 51-foot representation of a traditional Jesus figure standing on an 11-foot foundation of boulders and rocks – is still in the structural engineering stages, Tsuchiya said.

Once started, construction should take about three months, providing everything runs smoothly, he said.

This time around, non-flammable materials will be used in construction and a lightning suppression system will be built in to prevent a repeat of the June 2010 blaze that reduced the first structure – a waist up replica of Jesus with arms raised high – to pieces of charred steel.

Solid Rock co-pastor Darlene Bishop has said insurance is paying for construction of the new sculpture.

The first statue was built for about $250,000 in 2004.

The End is Nigh

other — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:34:47 -0500

from the Wall Street Journal:

Churches Find End Is Nigh
The Number of Religious Facilities Unable to Pay Their Mortgage Is Surging

By SHELLY BANJO

ROSEVILLE, Calif.—Residential and commercial real-estate owners aren't the only ones losing their properties to foreclosure. The past few years have seen a rapid acceleration in the number of churches losing their sanctuaries because they can't pay the mortgage.

Just as homeowners borrowed too much or built too big during boom times, many churches did the same and now are struggling as their congregations shrink and collections fall owing to rising unemployment and a weak economy.

Since 2008, nearly 200 religious facilities have been foreclosed on by banks, up from eight during the previous two years and virtually none in the decade before that, according to real-estate services firm CoStar Group, Inc. Analysts and bankers say hundreds of additional churches face financial struggles so severe they could face foreclosure or bankruptcy in the near future.

"Churches are the next wave in this economic crisis," says Rev. Jesse L. Jackson Sr., president and founder of the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, a non-profit civil-rights group, who works with pastors around the country to help churches negotiate better terms with their bankers.

Religious denominations of all kinds have suffered in recent years as donations have declined, with many Catholic parishes closing and synagogues merging their congregations. But the property-financing problems have been concentrated among independent churches, which while seeking to expand lack a governing body to serve as a backstop to financial hardship.

"Religious organizations may be subject to the laws of God but they are also subject to the laws of economics," said Chris Macke, senior real-estate strategist at CoStar. Many troubled churches, he said, are in states such as California, Florida, Georgia and Michigan, which also have some of the highest home-foreclosures rates in the country.

In many cases, churches ran into trouble after borrowing to build bigger houses of worship needed to accommodate growing congregations in once-booming housing markets.

Pastors Rich and Lindy Oliver decided their Family Christian Center needed more space after their congregation rose from a few hundred in the early 1990s to 650 by 2002. The church borrowed $4.2 million and began building a new 1,000-person sanctuary on 11 acres in Orangevale, Calif., including classrooms and a space for adult learning.

Across the U.S., churches are losing their sanctuaries because they can't pay their mortgage debt. Some borrowed too much or built too big during boom times and now are struggling as congregations -- and collections -- shrink.

But when housing prices across California began tumbling in 2006, followed by a surge in unemployment and foreclosures, many congregants moved away, and those who were left reduced their tithing sharply. Meanwhile, the property, valued at $8.5 million in 2002 was appraised at just $2.5 million in 2008.

Stretched to the limit, the pastors stopped making payments. "I just told the bank to take it," Mr. Oliver said. "If you're a church with a piece of property upside down and no one will refinance the loan or lend you more money, there's not really another choice but to walk away."

Bankers and lenders typically are reluctant to "foreclose on God" and seek to work out deals with churches. But none proved possible in the Olivers' case.

These days, Mr. Oliver said his church, renamed The Family Church, was "doing what the rest of America is doing—we're cutting back and simplifying." In November, the Olivers raised $700,000—not nearly enough to rescue the previous church—from donations and personal loans from church members and used it to lease a former furniture store in a strip mall in Roseville, Calif.

Traditionally, lenders considered churches good risks because of the weekly cash flow generated by tithing, as well as the moral compulsion felt by most pastors to pay down debt.

Like many churches, Mr. Oliver used bond financing, not a straight mortgage, to fund construction. Historically, churches wanting to build turned to their governing bodies or to specialized lenders that originated fixed-rate 25-year to 30-year mortgages. During the real-estate boom,

But during the real-estate boom, regional and community banks attracted churches with lower rates on shorter-term loans. At the same time, some bond underwriters began offering churches more money up front if they issued so-called compound-interest bonds. In such cases, churches often paid nothing until the bonds came due years later, but then had to pay both the principal and accrued interest, which often doubled the amount they owed.

Many such bonds come due in the next few years. But with property values down and cash in short supply, many churches won't have the funds to payand will have trouble refinancing. "In 2011 and the next couple of years, we're going to see a big maturity wall hitting these churches," said Scott Rolfs, head of Wisconsin-based investment bank Ziegler and Co.'s Religion and Education practice.

Many churches have also been upended by plain mortgages. Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Sacramento took out a $1.9 million mortgage to acquire a $2.3 million 18,000-square-foot property in 2004 that included a church and two retail spaces. Johnny Zapara, the pastor, had refinanced his own home for $400,000 to make a down payment and expected to pay most of the $17,000 monthly payment with income from retail tenants.

When one of the tenants went out of business and a new one couldn't be found, Vineyard subsidized the payments for two years. Eventually the church ran out of money. and couldn't refinance because the value of the property had fallen sharply.The lender foreclosed earlier this month.

"A building does not make a church. We will find a way to continue," Mr. Zapara said.

How Does Your Faith Influence Your Day Job?

Galadriel — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:50:55 -0500

Many years ago someone asked this question on one of the less-travelled sections of The Ooze. I can't for the life of me remember how anyone responded to it, though, so I thought I'd repost it.

For the purpose of this thread I'm mostly interested in responses from people with "secular" jobs - that is, who aren't paid to pastor or to educate others about God. (Yes, @Seph, I still agree that the distinctions we make between "secular" and everything else are often nonsensical. I just wasn't sure how else to word this. ;) )

I've never read anything about how, say, a waitress/waiter, doctor, truck driver, banker, retail clerk, small business owner, gardener, etc. lives out their beliefs in the context of their daily work. Does or should it influence how a boss interacts with his or her employees or how an employee does his or her work?

Looking forward to what everyone thinks!

Us vs Them: Who is my brother?

other — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:18:33 -0500

When Jesus told the Good Samaritan story to answer the question, "Who is my neighbor", so as to interpret the law in an expansive rather than limiting sense, ... does this also extend to the category of who is my brother and who is my sister? How should we view and treat other people who fall outside of religious boundaries?

Ala. gov. apologizes for remarks on non-Christians
Bentley told church crowd on Monday that non-Christians were 'not my brother,' 'not my sister'

By JAY REEVES
The Associated Press

BIRMINGHAM, Alabama — Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley apologized Wednesday for his remarks about only Christians being his brothers and sisters.

Bentley said he didn't mean to insult anyone when he told a church crowd on Monday that those who have not accepted Jesus as their savior are not his brothers and sisters, shocking some critics who questioned whether he can be fair to non-Christians.

"Anybody here today who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, I'm telling you, you're not my brother and you're not my sister, and I want to be your brother," Bentley said Monday, just moments into his new administration, according to The Birmingham News.

The Anti-Defamation League on Tuesday called Bentley's remarks shocking.

"His comments are not only offensive, but also raise serious questions as to whether non-Christians can expect to receive equal treatment during his tenure as governor," said Bill Nigut, the ADL's regional director.

Bentley apologized on Wednesday, however, saying no one should hate anyone else because of color or religion. Bentley spoke with reporters after meeting with several members of Alabama's Jewish community and other faith leaders at his Capitol office.

The Southern Baptist deacon says he will be a governor for everyone, not just Christians.

Church as a Season

hpiglet — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:14:28 -0500

A few years ago, I had the opportunity to participate in a small style "community because we don't like a building" group that met at a coffee shop. We took turns talking about interesting things in scripture based around some themes. (Actually the only theme I attended was "Parables of Jesus.") We shared the Lord's Supper together, prayed for each other, and had meditation or singing time depending on if someone brought a guitar.

When I joined the group had recently cut in half. Folks had moved on - to be hired at their next ministry position, to graduate from college and move on, etc. The group was...very apparently...winding down.

At first the couple who led it was kind of deflated...I mean, numbers mean success. Then they sat down together and talked, and here's the thought that was presented:

Maybe we're just here for a season of community together.

Sure there was a beginning, and there was an end, but it was a time. And God worked, and the Spirit moved, and we saw one person come to know Christ in a personal way. And we saw about 30 individuals realise that church isn't that building with its unswaying rules and ideas on how you're supposed to have faith, but that church is us...stumbling around, checking for light on the path. And then...we parted our ways. Because the season was over.

What are your thoughts about thinking about church/community/however in this manner? Church becomes fluid, we don't force it when it's not supposed to happen any longer. We disciple, and learn, and grow with one another in a community, and then are released to other communities where we disciple, learn and grow there.

I'm interested to know your thoughts.

~H